Help with a dated 1759 powder horn please - Page 3

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 01:45 PM

Ok just got a email back from Tom Slater. He specializes in this type of history and he said. “It is a very nice horn and obviously authentic” he went on saying he’s not seeing anything military related to the horn so he believes it would be a civilian horn. Then he gave me the name of another place in Cincinnati that would be able to help me get it into a collectors hand. Since he didn’t feel it was military related it wouldn’t meet their price on the low end.

And this is one of the biggest auction houses in the US. Located just north of me in Chicago IL.

**4V50 Gary** · March 22, 2018, 06:07 PM

Muzzle Blasts is the magazine of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association located in Friendship, Indiana.

There were professional horners who carved and then scrimshawed horns. There were also soldiers who engaged in trench art. Your horn appears to be the latter both in term of sculpting of the horn as well as quality of the scrimshaw. This doesn't detract from it.

Was your family here during the French and Indian War (1755-60) or Pontiac's Rebellion (1763)? You may want to identify your ancestor then and have second thoughts about getting rid of a family heirloom.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 06:12 PM

Sorry for my lack of knowledge in the gun dept. ;( well the wife tried to add some more pictures but it wouldn’t let her sign into my acct:/ I’ll try again later on. Thank you guys for the help and I’ll update you guys when I here more

drobs · March 22, 2018, 07:42 PM

Here's a link to see more pics of the horn:

https://imgur.com/a/Rzq5k

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 07:50 PM

Man thank you so much!!

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 08:00 PM

Drob were you able to pick anything else up on the horn?

James K · March 22, 2018, 08:05 PM

True on he civilian theory. Most carving/drawing by military members tends to picture military scenes (marching troops, flag poles, barracks, cannon, etc.)

The horn has seen a lot of use and may have been "restored" at one time. Areas of the outer layer are missing, where it split and peeled off. (Horns are built up by nature in layers; the original maker would have made sure the outer layer extended fully down to cover the end block.)

Jim

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 08:16 PM

That makes some sense

thank you!

**4V50 Gary** · March 22, 2018, 08:20 PM

After "Hen" is that "Regia" as in King?

Finally noticed the facets on the pouring spout.

drobs · March 22, 2018, 08:32 PM

Here's a searchable database of names of soldiers from 1759 - 1760.

Scroll down on this link. Shows all the Henri's both on the French and English side:
http://www.ccbn-nbc.gc.ca/en/history...submit=Search#

Henri = French
Henry = English

Could he not spell his own name? Lots of of folks made a mark for their name back then.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 08:36 PM

Now that you say that it definitely looks like it could be for sure. Really hard to decipher after the R. Would that make it part of royalty?

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 08:39 PM

My wife said she sees Gia. Drob I will look through it

thank you. You’ve been loads of help.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 08:47 PM

If PV= place my horn says PV and below says Henri. Could it possibly mean fort Henry?

drobs · March 22, 2018, 08:55 PM

Could be.

Ze52514 · March 22, 2018, 09:01 PM

Just wish there was some soldiers or something that was a little more helpful:/

**4V50 Gary** · March 22, 2018, 10:36 PM

I doubt if PV stands for Fort William Henry. It could be the soldier's name, PV Henri but the trouble with that theory is that it should not be followed by Regia, which means king. That would be disloyal as aspiring to the crown. George II would not approve nor would the King's officers.

Scorch · March 23, 2018, 02:21 AM

I have no idea whether it's a period artifact or a recent artifact, but here are a few interesting tidbits:
1- Honi soit qui mal y pense- this is the motto of the Order Of The Garter. It means "Shame to who thinks ill of it (the Order).

2- Dieu Et Mon Droit- translates to "God And My Right", it is the motto of the King or Queen of England. It refers to the authority of God and the Divine Right of Kings to judge and rule.

3- 1759 is the "Anno Mirabilis", the "Marvelous Year" when the British had a series of victories over the French during the Seven Years War (the French and Indian War were just the incidents of that war that occurred in North America). It was bandied about much like we hoorahed 1776.

4- The lion and unicorn are heraldic animals of the King's coat of arms. FWIW, it was punishable under the law for anyone other than the King or an officer of the Crown to display the King's coat of arms.

5- Another FWIW- re-enactment is not a new thing, and there have been re-enactors for 200 + years acting out famous incidents of the Revolutionary War era. This means 200+ years of fake uniforms, fake artifacts, fake documents, fake militaria in general. A friend of mine's grandfather used to use a supposedly authentic Brown Bess for re-enactments before WW2.

**4V50 Gary** · March 23, 2018, 07:59 AM

Can you get a blue light to the horn? It may reveal what faded?

Ze52514 · March 23, 2018, 08:04 AM

Scorch thank you for the response. I sent your thoughts along with Gary’s and drobs over to Tom and see what he thinks.

Gary I will try that after work and see what I can come up with. Should I do that in a dark room??

Ze52514 · March 23, 2018, 02:06 PM

I’ll try to get some pics tonight in a blue light. Then after that I believe I’m sending it over to Tim Lewis in Cincinnati. For him to go through it and possibly put it up for auction.

Ze52514 · March 23, 2018, 06:21 PM

I wasn’t able to see anything else with the black light test.

Model12Win · March 24, 2018, 02:28 AM

Aww! Pony!!

Ze52514 · March 29, 2018, 01:13 PM

Well the horn has been with jack Lewis from Cowan’s auction house in Ohio. The horn is indeed authentic. There was a little bit of downfall from what he was saying. He said it could’ve maybe fetched up to 10k if someone hadnt cleaned it up. With that being said he said he could most likely get 3k for it and maybe up to 5k. This is what kinda sucks, it won’t go into a catalog till late fall.

Thanks guys.

drobs · March 29, 2018, 10:43 PM

Good to hear.

March 22, 2018, 06:07 PM	#52
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Muzzle Blasts is the magazine of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association located in Friendship, Indiana. There were professional horners who carved and then scrimshawed horns. There were also soldiers who engaged in trench art. Your horn appears to be the latter both in term of sculpting of the horn as well as quality of the scrimshaw. This doesn't detract from it. Was your family here during the French and Indian War (1755-60) or Pontiac's Rebellion (1763)? You may want to identify your ancestor then and have second thoughts about getting rid of a family heirloom. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 22, 2018, 07:42 PM	#54
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Here's a link to see more pics of the horn: https://imgur.com/a/Rzq5k __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by drobs; March 22, 2018 at 07:59 PM.

March 22, 2018, 08:20 PM	#59
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	After "Hen" is that "Regia" as in King? Finally noticed the facets on the pouring spout. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 22, 2018, 08:32 PM	#60
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Here's a searchable database of names of soldiers from 1759 - 1760. Scroll down on this link. Shows all the Henri's both on the French and English side: http://www.ccbn-nbc.gc.ca/en/history...submit=Search# Henri = French Henry = English Could he not spell his own name? Lots of of folks made a mark for their name back then. __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by drobs; March 22, 2018 at 08:46 PM.

March 22, 2018, 08:55 PM	#64
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Could be. __________________ NRA Life Member

March 22, 2018, 01:45 PM	#51
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Ok just got a email back from Tom Slater. He specializes in this type of history and he said. “It is a very nice horn and obviously authentic” he went on saying he’s not seeing anything military related to the horn so he believes it would be a civilian horn. Then he gave me the name of another place in Cincinnati that would be able to help me get it into a collectors hand. Since he didn’t feel it was military related it wouldn’t meet their price on the low end. And this is one of the biggest auction houses in the US. Located just north of me in Chicago IL.

March 22, 2018, 06:12 PM	#53
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Sorry for my lack of knowledge in the gun dept. ;( well the wife tried to add some more pictures but it wouldn’t let her sign into my acct:/ I’ll try again later on. Thank you guys for the help and I’ll update you guys when I here more

March 22, 2018, 07:50 PM	#55
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Man thank you so much!!

March 22, 2018, 08:00 PM	#56
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Drob were you able to pick anything else up on the horn?

March 22, 2018, 08:05 PM	#57
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	True on he civilian theory. Most carving/drawing by military members tends to picture military scenes (marching troops, flag poles, barracks, cannon, etc.) The horn has seen a lot of use and may have been "restored" at one time. Areas of the outer layer are missing, where it split and peeled off. (Horns are built up by nature in layers; the original maker would have made sure the outer layer extended fully down to cover the end block.) Jim

March 22, 2018, 08:16 PM	#58
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	That makes some sense thank you!

March 22, 2018, 08:36 PM	#61
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Now that you say that it definitely looks like it could be for sure. Really hard to decipher after the R. Would that make it part of royalty?

March 22, 2018, 08:39 PM	#62
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	My wife said she sees Gia. Drob I will look through it thank you. You’ve been loads of help.

March 22, 2018, 08:47 PM	#63
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	If PV= place my horn says PV and below says Henri. Could it possibly mean fort Henry?

March 22, 2018, 09:01 PM	#65
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Just wish there was some soldiers or something that was a little more helpful:/

March 22, 2018, 10:36 PM	#66
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	I doubt if PV stands for Fort William Henry. It could be the soldier's name, PV Henri but the trouble with that theory is that it should not be followed by Regia, which means king. That would be disloyal as aspiring to the crown. George II would not approve nor would the King's officers. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 23, 2018, 02:21 AM	#67
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I have no idea whether it's a period artifact or a recent artifact, but here are a few interesting tidbits: 1- Honi soit qui mal y pense- this is the motto of the Order Of The Garter. It means "Shame to who thinks ill of it (the Order). 2- Dieu Et Mon Droit- translates to "God And My Right", it is the motto of the King or Queen of England. It refers to the authority of God and the Divine Right of Kings to judge and rule. 3- 1759 is the "Anno Mirabilis", the "Marvelous Year" when the British had a series of victories over the French during the Seven Years War (the French and Indian War were just the incidents of that war that occurred in North America). It was bandied about much like we hoorahed 1776. 4- The lion and unicorn are heraldic animals of the King's coat of arms. FWIW, it was punishable under the law for anyone other than the King or an officer of the Crown to display the King's coat of arms. 5- Another FWIW- re-enactment is not a new thing, and there have been re-enactors for 200 + years acting out famous incidents of the Revolutionary War era. This means 200+ years of fake uniforms, fake artifacts, fake documents, fake militaria in general. A friend of mine's grandfather used to use a supposedly authentic Brown Bess for re-enactments before WW2. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 23, 2018, 07:59 AM	#68
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Can you get a blue light to the horn? It may reveal what faded? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 23, 2018, 08:04 AM	#69
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Scorch thank you for the response. I sent your thoughts along with Gary’s and drobs over to Tom and see what he thinks. Gary I will try that after work and see what I can come up with. Should I do that in a dark room??

March 23, 2018, 02:06 PM	#70
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I’ll try to get some pics tonight in a blue light. Then after that I believe I’m sending it over to Tim Lewis in Cincinnati. For him to go through it and possibly put it up for auction.

March 23, 2018, 06:21 PM	#71
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	I wasn’t able to see anything else with the black light test.

March 24, 2018, 02:28 AM	#72
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Aww! Pony!!

March 29, 2018, 01:13 PM	#73
Ze52514 Member Join Date: March 17, 2018 Posts: 38	Well the horn has been with jack Lewis from Cowan’s auction house in Ohio. The horn is indeed authentic. There was a little bit of downfall from what he was saying. He said it could’ve maybe fetched up to 10k if someone hadnt cleaned it up. With that being said he said he could most likely get 3k for it and maybe up to 5k. This is what kinda sucks, it won’t go into a catalog till late fall. Thanks guys. Last edited by 4V50 Gary; March 31, 2018 at 09:34 AM. Reason: not a for sale forum

March 29, 2018, 10:43 PM	#74
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Good to hear. __________________ NRA Life Member