Is Tai Chi Worth a D@*n??

[Matt VDW]

Who trains to attack in a group, outside of the infantry?

Football players. Granted, tackling isn't a very sophisticated form of attack, but if it puts you on the ground, you're going to have a hard time dealing with multiple opponents.

In a three on one scenario, it seems to me that only one of the attackers has to make an effective attack. If #1 and #2 do nothing more than distract the defender and/or get him off balance, that's good enough if #3 can take advantage of the opening.

[tso doc]

IMHO Martial Arts can be divided into two different paths.
Pre Bruce Lee,and post Bruce Lee.

Remember it is only my personal belief,based on my own course of study, but it seems to me that most schools now are run as money makers.

Some of the pre Bruce Lee schools did not advertise for students as the teacher often times worked with students
for a life time.

I have found Tai Chi Chuan, yang style, that makes use of the sword, to work well with Akido and boxing.

With time one can advance from basic Tai Chi to the death touch which involves knowledge of lethal pressure points.

I also find merit in the way of the stick (Shindo Muso Ryu),
and the art of cane fighting.

When I boxed as a youngster I learned early on that even a three minute fight can leave one with arms that burn and feel as if they are full of lead.

What Tai Chi did for me was help me learn to develop a controled reflex and rather than have an excellerated heartbeat(fight or flight),to remain calm when confronted with danger, and continue thinking in the midst of action.

That ability saved my life in two ambushes, and while injured,allowed me to survive, while my attackers did not.

I have a small vanity and continue to learn from any with knowledge and have taken small parts of many styles and forms to suit me personally.

Tai Chi will share with one the ability to slow time down and allow for choice--not just reaction,IMHO.

[Skorzeny]

I would divide martial arts in today's USA into three categories: fitness, sports/contest and combatives.

Fitness-type martial arts include "cardio" kick boxing, Tae Kwon Do (at most places), Tai Chi Chuan and such. This category include those martial arts that stress cardi-vascular conditioning and stress-relief and may involve spiritual dimensions as well as some light contact or sparring. It is definitely not for self-defense, but is an ideal introduction to beginners and fitness enthusiasts (who frankly do not need the injuries attendant with more "hard core" training).

Contest-oriented martial arts include Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai and UFC-style no-holds barred events. These often involve "hard-core" grappling and striking. Benefits are derived from full-force sparring and the consquent ability to deal with actual opposition. Downside is the "duel" or "contest" mentality that does not always reflect "the street."

Combatives include Fairbairn-Applegate system, Krav Maga and myriad of systems that usually incorporate scenario-based training with emphasis on strikes to vulnerable spots. The positive element is the more self-defense oriented frame of mind and the appropriate techniques. The negative element is two-fold: combatives usually do not build physical attributes as fitness or contest-oriented martial arts do and they do not prepare practitioners for actual opposition (particularly surprising or unexpected situations) due to emphasis on "you-do-this-then-I-do-that" style of training.

Please note that this is a broad generalization. The actual category and level of training vary widely within a system depending on the instructor and the students.

Skorzeny

[LASur5r]

When we were going through the strictly survival phase of martial arts...we used to use one overall practice every session or so to bring the practioners back to reality.
We practiced in a wrestling room...wall to wall mats(even the walls were covered) We had one door out.
We put the Good guy in the far corner (about a 30x30 room)...We threw in 5 to 15 experienced practioners between the Good Guy and the door. Everyone was able to use anything that they felt they wanted to. The bad guys wore body, shin, and head protectors.
For the first year, very few people got out the door, much less to the door. The Bg's used back mounts, chokes, trips, takedowns, low level kicks, full power slaps, gang takedowns, etc...
We slowed it down so people could have time to think.
We kept mixing the BG's because they started to learn to attack as a group.
Anyone into self-defense should try that type of work out. You find...first and foremost, you have to be in shape to survive an attack. You stay calm and you learn to breath and you react....oddly enough, we all learned by slowing down at first...much like T'ai Chi.

[Glamdring]

So the people that did make out of the room. How did they manage it?

[Skorzeny]

LASur5R made an excellent point about slowing things down for practices in the beginning. I've noticed that most people (myself included) tend to want to do things quickly in the beginning.

Only later did I realize that speed comes from repetition, not hurrying or rushing. I guess what I am saying is that slowly practiced "smooth" motions eventually tend to become fast as one practices gradually. If one tries to rush from the beginning, he will be left with jerky, quick motions that will be inaccurate and, ultimately, futile.

Skorzeny

[Viceroy808]

Tai Chi Chuan as I understand it no longer uses explosive chi in its movements. As it is practiced in modern times, it is different from what it used to be at the turn of the century ... at least, in the way it was explained to me.

Nevertheless, it is a wonderful system at combat speed, and in Japan isn't regarded as calisthenics for seniors ... on the contrary, "Tai Kyoku Ken" as it is called over there is given the full respect accorded a proper martial art.

At any rate, I think a problem with understanding some of the more esoteric forms of Gung Fu such as Pa Gua and Tai Chi, is that they tend to bely "scientific" explanations and require a heck of a lot of time invested to pay dividends.

Slowing it down works. Seems like every other person wants to rush things.

[Spectre]

Skorzeny and LAS, I have also found that smooth, precise movements work best as a foundation, speeding up with increased skill.

[Double Eagle]

Hello all-

There are two aspects of this thread which I'd like to wade in on.

On Tai Chi: Surely this is a question of which instructor you end up with and what you really want to put into your training. On the one hand, you could end up with Dan Docherty (www.taichichuan.co.uk) who is a pretty well-known full contact fighter and all-round hardman. His students have a good reputation as fighters. On the other hand, you could end up with (as is likely in my neck of the woods) some new-age hippy aerobics instructor who did two seminars and is now teaching 'Tai Chi Physical Culture' or some rubbish like that.
But from what I understand, Tai Chi Chuan is usually not practised alone in China, but along with another art like Chin'na (sp?). I spoke to a Chinese man working with me about this and he said that he believed Tai Chi was for health and technique and Chin'na for applications.
If it means anything to you, Don Draeger was very impressed by Tai Chi Chuan masters.

On multiple opponents: Thank the gods for pre-emptive strikes, guns, knives, the ability to run fast.

[Josh Smith]

Tai Chi Chuan started life as what was considered the deadliest Kung fu form in China. So deadly, in fact, that one of the emperors declared that it should be watered down and taught slowly and a form of exercise to inhance "chi", or life energy.

The slow rising and falling of both arms that you may have seen is actually a block. When the forearm is close to the body and parallel with the ground this is actually a "ward off" maneuver.

I've attempted to practice kata quickly and find that though some of the moves have a place when mixed in with other styles, the Tai Chi form itself (as popularly taught) is so watered down that its effectiveness in a self-defense situation is minimal.

Whatever else it does though, it sure makes the hands tingle. Good excercise.

EC

[RazorsEdge]

Thanks for all the excellent responses to my original question. (Have been on vacation for a week.)

You have provided enough info for me to make an informed decision.

[modoc]

If you really want to kick the asses of 3 tough bikers, I'd recommend finding a serious Ju-Jitsu school. One that doesn't take itself too seriously, and focuses more on pragmatic technique, and is willing to defocus the more esoteric aspects of the tradition forms.

The origins of Tai Chi, were certainly an effective martial art, but these days, in America, virtually all the schools are teaching a more meditative version, and while the real masters would be able to be very effective in a combat situation, I don't feel that they adequately prepare thier students for such things, nor do I belive that many of the people to seek out Tai Chi are looking for that.

The trick is to find a teacher that you like and trust, who will say something like "While the best way to win a fight, is not to fight, and running should be your first technique; if you HAVE to fight, this is how to deliver a server beating to 6 guys!" Instead of the often more traditional approach including more meditation, and mental obediance, which certainly has it's place, and at higher levels, can be more important that fighting technique, but doesn't do much when you walk out of the first class, and get mugged.

Just my $0.02.

YMMV,

Devon

[falconer]

I began learning Tai Chi Chuan last summer. This is in addition to my Hsing I and Shuai Chiao training. I've found that most of the movements in Tai Chi have combat applications. Just practicing it has helped me in my hard style training. The key is finding someone to teach you both the hard and soft sides of the style, they all have them.

[RazorsEdge]

I was scanning a book on Tai Chi Chuan at Barnes & Nobles over the weekend. In the introduction, the author stated that he got a lot of flack from other Tai Chi practitioners because he considered Tai Chi to have any martial arts application at all.

I dunno, maybe driving my car slowly to the corner 7-11 everyday prepares me to run the Indy 500.

[Matt Wallis]

"I dunno, maybe driving my car slowly to the corner 7-11 everyday prepares me to run the Indy 500."

Yeah, I have to say that whether Tai Chi is supposed to have martial application or not, if all you ever practice is the slow motion forms I doubt you'd be prepared to use it. Slow motion practice can be great in any MA, but it is never enough by itself.

I still would like to hear from Tai Chi practicioners whether or not they ever practice the techniques at full speed and power?

Regards,
Matt Wallis

[falconer]

I've used Tai Chi movements at full force before. I've also had it used on me. I've learned a great deal about redirecting and controling force (the hard way at that) through Tai Chi. A principle found in Tai Chi Chuan called the reversion of opposites (part of a yin yang type of thing) is very effective in a combatitive situation. It was yet another thing I got to learn the Hard Way(TM).

[vitiaz]

Falconer & others,

Yeah, its really interesting when you start to "get it". Some instructors I have encountered used terms such as "catching & returning the technique" or "vibrating into an opponent".

On a tangent, there is a martial arts film called "Tai Chi
Master" that illustrates some of these principles. It's kind of hard to find...but worth watching. The tai chi guys are the "good guys", the "kung fu" guys are the bad guys. I think it was made in Hong Kong before HK reverted to the PRC.

[Double Eagle]

...!!

[Edited by Double Eagle on 05-17-2001 at 05:26 AM]

[madmike]

I've studied Tai Chi, SHaolin, Mantis Chuan and Shotokan.
Tai Chi is a GREAT defensive form, but takes a long time to master. It's short on offense.

For rude, crude fighting, a good Indonesian Pentjak Silat is hard to beat, until you lose use of a limb. After that, a good hard kung fu--Shaolin or Wing Chun is hard to beat. Until then, Kung Fu is as good. Combine that with a Filipino stick form--Kali or Arnis and you'll be set for anything.

I prefer, of course, ching ching pow to any unarmed art.

I don't recommend Tae Kwon Do for anything except warm up and tournament.

[George Hill]

If you want to seriously kick butt:
Shotokan
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/index.html

[LoneStranger]

Elizabeth Petersen,
My question is with your "Run screaming the other way" system of self defense, is that before or after you empty your firearm into them?

[George Hill]

If its after - there is no reason to run...

[LASur5r]

All right, get ready to flame me....

For you others, put on your hip waders and raincoat, it's going to get thick here.

For you others...if you understand what I'm putting down...you're there and you know of which I speak....

In my search since 1958...I tried to find a quick route to "instant" martial arts...the answer of course is directed hard work in realistic techniques and Bruce's adage that "to learn to swim, you must get in the water."

So I got into the "challenge method of learning." Didn't know this old body could take such a beating...but I learned on the receiving end, whether or not the technique had enough "reality" or power in it.

At one point, I chased down the "iron palm" guys, then some of the Chen Ta'i Ch'i guys,vibrating palm dudes, and the poison hand people who came out of China and Korea. Lot of hard hitters, but still couldn't find someone who could teach me the "secret" hits.

Finally, met Bruce and at the same time oddly enough...a middle aged lady who could knock me down "gently" without seeming effort. Bruce had the hard way of knocking me down and sometimes out, but it was not "gentle."

I first learned Bruce's way then when I got the one inch punch down I began my training with Mrs. Sun. Been in the Sun Family style ever since.

I learned to move people two times my weight, I am 182 pounds now. I have learned it is not my "hit"...it is how hard the floor or the wall is when you direct the person into those objects at an accelerated speed. It is not throwing...all of it was learned slow until we could move people or objects which were heavier than you slowly , then at a moderate speed, then again at a slow speed at an extremely close distance. Then finally at an accelerated speed.

Try it, it helps whatever you are learning. I have students now at 3 to 6 months who "control" others who have taken other martial arts for a longer time.

Now..Bring on the FLAMES and slings and arrows.

"I am simply speaking MY Truth."
Believe and do what you will...it only affects your life.

[RazorsEdge]

I don't think the issue is whether one trains slowly, the issue is whether one ONLY trains slowly.

There is a whole heap of evidence that the MAJORITY of Tai Chi practitioners either:

a) Don't integrate butt-kick training into their regimen at all, in fact, don't even believe in it. or,


b) Only give it lipservice and NEVER get up to speed.


I believe in the simple concept that butt kick training should be as realistic as possible, cocsistent with safety. I am baffled that anyone would would take any other attitude.(This post is not dirtected to any particular previous post.)

[ICBentley]

It is not easy to find worthwhile Tai C'hi instruction. Most is New Age Armwaving and a large proportion of the remainder is the dishonest work of stage magicians promising to initiate their students into some supernatural art.

After studying with some famous folks (including Da Liu and Wm. C.C. Chen [both are armwavers, unfortunately]) and searching for over thirty years for a good Tai C'hi martial arts instructor I found Erle Montaigue.

If you are interested, see his website:
http://www.taichiworld.net/

It contains some articles which can tell you where he's coming from. For example:

Go to "New Articles" and click "Taijiquan & Self-Defence"
excerpt: "There is no ‘soft’ way to fight someone or to defend yourself. No possible way to defend yourself and not harm the opponent! However, how many times do you hear that Taiji is the ‘soft’ martial art that can be used to ‘gently’ put someone down."

or go to "New Articles"/"Rules For Fighting"
excerpt: "1/. Never step backwards. ...
4/. Never use two steps in fighting. ...
6/. Never use a lock or hold as your main fighting method. ...
7/. Never use pushes or pulls in self-defence. ...
9/. The legs are for standing, the hands are for fighting. ..."

And, yes, it is possible, not easy, to learn by videotape.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Bentley

Interplanetary Grand Poobah, Chi Ken Gua No - art of winning through retreat.