what do you do with your rifle when testing handloads

bungiex88 · May 21, 2015, 03:03 PM

What do you do with your gun when testing handloads for accuracy. Clean before every group or clean once before shooting then fire them all or cleaning before every group but firing a couple fouling shots before your handloads ect... what would be the best way to go about consitancy. What's the best way you found on going about this.

F. Guffey · May 21, 2015, 03:48 PM

Not sure why someone would start with a dirty barrel. I do not have a ritual, I normally start with a rifle that has a new scope mount, rings and scope. I will fire a round then adjust the scope, after that it depends on the number of rounds I have loaded. I clean the barrel when finished.

The range does not disallow cleaning the barrel at the range, they do not allow anyone in front of the benches. My methods and or techniques differ from most when cleaning the barrel.

F. Guffey

bungiex88 · May 21, 2015, 03:55 PM

Not so much a dirty barrel but a barrel with oil in it. And I'm not sighting in a scope I'm testing handloads out 33 rounds every 3 rounds is different charge weight

bungiex88 · May 21, 2015, 04:07 PM

Another thing is how long you wait between different loads. Shooting 308 heavy barrel

cheygriz · May 21, 2015, 05:51 PM

Start with thoroughly clean DRY barrel. (no oil)

Fire one or two fouling shots

Fire two five shot groups.

THOROUGHLY clean barrel.

Repeat.

When I am satisfied that I have the load I want, I shoot five 10 shot groups, cleaning between groups.

It works for me!

Mobuck · May 21, 2015, 05:53 PM

A well used, slick bore won't change accuracy in the span of 5 or 6 x 3 shot groups(or most likely not in 5 or 6 x 5 shot groups). If you're the kind of person who requires something like 10 shot groups, I'd clean between groups and fire 2 or 3 foulers before each string. If changing bullet brands, 2-3 wet patches followed by 2-3 dry patches between strings would be a good idea regardless of how smooth the bore is.

SonOfGun · May 21, 2015, 06:14 PM

A clean barrel is only good for one shot.

Leave it dirty unless accuracy drops off.

Many long range shooters never clean a barrel.

Nathan · May 21, 2015, 07:02 PM

I clean about every 50 rounds, unless the rifle demanded I clean more.

Clark · May 21, 2015, 07:06 PM

See the Copper fouling?

I clean when the accuracy drops off.
I clean until I can't see Copper in the bore in the last 1/4" of the muzzle with a flashlight and a magnifier.
That may take 1/2 hour of scrubbing with Flitz & Kroil or Witch's Brew and KG12 and bronze brushes and cloth patches.

pic above same as link below

jmr40 · May 21, 2015, 07:31 PM

It will take 5-10 shots through a clean barrel before you start getting the true POI and best accuracy potential. No point in wasting ammo and components. I clean my barrels after hunting season. I do a lot of load testing and practice during the spring and summer. The barrels don't get touched unless accuracy starts to drop off. They get another good cleaning a few weeks prior to hunting season, but far enough away to ensure at least 1 or preferably 2 range trips to put a few rounds through the barrel before I start hunting.

If for some reason the barrel has to be cleaned, especially if the action has to come out of the stock, I won't trust it to hunt with until I get a chance to put a few shots through it. I'll use a different rifle until I can.

bungiex88 · May 21, 2015, 09:24 PM

Now when u say not to clean do you still oil the barrel then fire a couple fouling shots out to clear the oil or do you put it away dry until next range trip or hunt

math teacher · May 21, 2015, 09:45 PM

I have a friend who did advertising for magazines such as American Rifleman who was prairie dog hunting with Bob Melik. After a lot of shooting he was about to clean his rifle when Melik asked him if his rifle's accuracy was falling off.

"No it's shooting fine.""

"Then why clean it?"

FrankenMauser · May 21, 2015, 10:25 PM

I follow the same procedures that that particular rifle gets the rest of the year:

If it's a "clean it when it goes to crap" type of rifle, then I don't do anything differently for load testing.

If it's a "clean it after every trip" type of rifle, then I test with a clean barrel.

If it's a "clean it when the copper fouling gets too bad, but re-foul it to get back to normal" type of rifle, then I'll clean it and send 5-15 shots down range before testing.

Etc., etc....

bungiex88 · May 21, 2015, 10:55 PM

Thank for everyone's comments I'm new to reloading and wanted to make sure I'm doing this right. I usually don't scrub my guns really at all usually send cleaner into barrel slide brass brush through couple times to break up any powder residue then send oil down through.

Ifishsum · May 21, 2015, 11:12 PM

If the barrel has had at least a few dozen rounds down it already, I would clean well (but I wouldn't oil it, that is only for long term storage) and then first fire 2-3 fouling shots of anything other than what I'm testing. Then start with my shot strings; I usually fire them all without cleaning, unless I have a barrel that seems to foul quickly then I might clean between strings. Oil is not necessary at all if you're going to shoot it again; I push a dry patch down last so the bore is swabbed of any oil/cleaner.

With a heavy barrel you should be able to do 5 shots easily, but then let it cool for 5-10 minutes before my next string. Heavy barrels don't heat up as quickly but they also don't cool down as quickly so I try not to let them get too warm if I can help it.

Colorado Redneck · May 21, 2015, 11:13 PM

Oil in the bore when shooting is not a good thing. If you oil the bore, run a dry patch or two down it before firing. I only oil if the gun is going to sit in the safe for a while. Then when it comes out to go shoot, a dry patch or two down the bore, and its ready to rumble.

Clark · May 21, 2015, 11:17 PM

Oil has a vapor pressure and loses it's protection for table saw tops in a few months. But is seems to protect much longer in a bore. Maybe a lack of circulation to get the oil out? Or a lack of circulation to get the water vapor in?
Getting that oil out of the bore will drastically improve the first few shots at the range.
I did not figure that out. I read it on a forum 10 or 15 years ago.
I would have thought that the first shot should get all the oil out, but... it does not.

boondocker385 · May 21, 2015, 11:28 PM

So I was trained to clean my weapons as a kid and adult....but I have found with my preferred rifle (savage 110) that it is more consistent dirty. ...yet I clean it every 100 rounds or so. That usually means every month. I will then put half a dozen fouling rounds through it before load development or practice. I don't do much load development any more as I have found a couple of loads for it that are sub MOA. Funny thing is, it LOVES Remington green box just as much as my handloads although the point of impact is a little different than my hand loads

snuffy · May 22, 2015, 12:02 AM

More rifles are ruined by excessive cleaning than those that are just left fouled. I clean after a range session, regardless how many rounds were fired. A bullet will always go to a different point of aim right after cleaning than when the barrel is fouled.

Modern firearms using non-corrosive components don't need to be cleaned as soon as you get home. Or at the range. If a rifle won't shoot good groups fouled, get it rebareled.

A word about cleaning. Get a good SOLID cleaning rod and spear tipped jags. Clean from the breach using a bore guide. Use tight fitting patches with caliber specific jags so you put a lot of pressure on the sides of the patches. Get a gun vise so you can use both hands to guide the cleaning rod instead of trying to to hold the rifle with one hand while trying to push the rod with the other.

Some rifles, like lever guns and autos, have to cleaned from the muzzle. Then a tapered rod guide has to be held against the muzzle to center the rod. Failure to do that will wear the rifling at the muzzle on one side.

Don't even think about one of those rope cleaners. That rope can and will pick up abrasives in the weave, then that crap gets dragged down past that precious rifling each time you clean with it.

Mozella · May 22, 2015, 03:14 AM

You can minimize some variation by shooting "round robin" style. Yesterday I was testing 6 different seating depths. I loaded 60 identical rounds, differing only in seating depths, ten rounds at each depth I was interested in testing.

I printed an 8 1/2" x 11" card with six small targets, one target for each of the 6 different seating depths. I shot them in sequence, one round at a time for each of the different seating depths. This requires that you carefully position the correct round in your ammo box when you're loading and label them properly so you can keep track of what's what. You need to pay attention at the range too.

I repeated cycling through the six targets until each one had five hits. In other words, rather than shoot five identical rounds in a row at target one, I shot only one round, moved to the next target and shot a round which was seated slightly longer, and so on, making sure that as I fired each round, I launched it at the correct target.

That way I ended up with a five round group on each target, but spread out over time to equalize things like wind, barrel temperature, fouling, etc. Actually, I wasn't equalizing so much as spreading possible errors evenly among the 6 test subjects, but you get the idea.

Then I switched to card #2 and did the same thing for the remaining 30 rounds. I went home with two cards, each with five shot groups for each of the 6 variables I was testing. The variations were small, but after scanning the targets, doing some careful computer scoring, and then analyzing the data in M.S. Excel (along with making several graphs), I was able to detect a clear winner.

As you might suspect, during my test the conditions changed from dead calm to a light breeze, the barrel warmed up and cooled down a number of times, and the degree of fouling changed too. Had I not used this round robin style of testing, I wouldn't have as much confidence that I properly extracted the test results I was looking for.

May 21, 2015, 03:03 PM	#1
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	what do you do with your rifle when testing handloads What do you do with your gun when testing handloads for accuracy. Clean before every group or clean once before shooting then fire them all or cleaning before every group but firing a couple fouling shots before your handloads ect... what would be the best way to go about consitancy. What's the best way you found on going about this.

May 21, 2015, 05:51 PM	#5
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	Start with thoroughly clean DRY barrel. (no oil) Fire one or two fouling shots Fire two five shot groups. THOROUGHLY clean barrel. Repeat. When I am satisfied that I have the load I want, I shoot five 10 shot groups, cleaning between groups. It works for me! __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

May 21, 2015, 10:25 PM	#13
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I follow the same procedures that that particular rifle gets the rest of the year: If it's a "clean it when it goes to crap" type of rifle, then I don't do anything differently for load testing. If it's a "clean it after every trip" type of rifle, then I test with a clean barrel. If it's a "clean it when the copper fouling gets too bad, but re-foul it to get back to normal" type of rifle, then I'll clean it and send 5-15 shots down range before testing. Etc., etc.... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 21, 2015, 11:17 PM	#17
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Oil has a vapor pressure and loses it's protection for table saw tops in a few months. But is seems to protect much longer in a bore. Maybe a lack of circulation to get the oil out? Or a lack of circulation to get the water vapor in? Getting that oil out of the bore will drastically improve the first few shots at the range. I did not figure that out. I read it on a forum 10 or 15 years ago. I would have thought that the first shot should get all the oil out, but... it does not. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

May 21, 2015, 11:28 PM	#18
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	So I was trained to clean my weapons as a kid and adult....but I have found with my preferred rifle (savage 110) that it is more consistent dirty. ...yet I clean it every 100 rounds or so. That usually means every month. I will then put half a dozen fouling rounds through it before load development or practice. I don't do much load development any more as I have found a couple of loads for it that are sub MOA. Funny thing is, it LOVES Remington green box just as much as my handloads although the point of impact is a little different than my hand loads __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

May 21, 2015, 03:48 PM	#2
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Not sure why someone would start with a dirty barrel. I do not have a ritual, I normally start with a rifle that has a new scope mount, rings and scope. I will fire a round then adjust the scope, after that it depends on the number of rounds I have loaded. I clean the barrel when finished. The range does not disallow cleaning the barrel at the range, they do not allow anyone in front of the benches. My methods and or techniques differ from most when cleaning the barrel. F. Guffey

May 21, 2015, 03:55 PM	#3
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	Not so much a dirty barrel but a barrel with oil in it. And I'm not sighting in a scope I'm testing handloads out 33 rounds every 3 rounds is different charge weight

May 21, 2015, 04:07 PM	#4
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	Another thing is how long you wait between different loads. Shooting 308 heavy barrel

May 21, 2015, 05:53 PM	#6
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	A well used, slick bore won't change accuracy in the span of 5 or 6 x 3 shot groups(or most likely not in 5 or 6 x 5 shot groups). If you're the kind of person who requires something like 10 shot groups, I'd clean between groups and fire 2 or 3 foulers before each string. If changing bullet brands, 2-3 wet patches followed by 2-3 dry patches between strings would be a good idea regardless of how smooth the bore is.

May 21, 2015, 06:14 PM	#7
SonOfGun Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2012 Location: Utah Posts: 111	A clean barrel is only good for one shot. Leave it dirty unless accuracy drops off. Many long range shooters never clean a barrel.

May 21, 2015, 07:02 PM	#8
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	I clean about every 50 rounds, unless the rifle demanded I clean more.

May 21, 2015, 07:31 PM	#10
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	It will take 5-10 shots through a clean barrel before you start getting the true POI and best accuracy potential. No point in wasting ammo and components. I clean my barrels after hunting season. I do a lot of load testing and practice during the spring and summer. The barrels don't get touched unless accuracy starts to drop off. They get another good cleaning a few weeks prior to hunting season, but far enough away to ensure at least 1 or preferably 2 range trips to put a few rounds through the barrel before I start hunting. If for some reason the barrel has to be cleaned, especially if the action has to come out of the stock, I won't trust it to hunt with until I get a chance to put a few shots through it. I'll use a different rifle until I can.

May 21, 2015, 09:24 PM	#11
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	Now when u say not to clean do you still oil the barrel then fire a couple fouling shots out to clear the oil or do you put it away dry until next range trip or hunt

May 21, 2015, 09:45 PM	#12
math teacher Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Location: Southwest WA Coast Posts: 559	I have a friend who did advertising for magazines such as American Rifleman who was prairie dog hunting with Bob Melik. After a lot of shooting he was about to clean his rifle when Melik asked him if his rifle's accuracy was falling off. "No it's shooting fine."" "Then why clean it?"

May 21, 2015, 10:55 PM	#14
bungiex88 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2015 Location: central pa Posts: 264	Thank for everyone's comments I'm new to reloading and wanted to make sure I'm doing this right. I usually don't scrub my guns really at all usually send cleaner into barrel slide brass brush through couple times to break up any powder residue then send oil down through.

May 21, 2015, 11:12 PM	#15
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	If the barrel has had at least a few dozen rounds down it already, I would clean well (but I wouldn't oil it, that is only for long term storage) and then first fire 2-3 fouling shots of anything other than what I'm testing. Then start with my shot strings; I usually fire them all without cleaning, unless I have a barrel that seems to foul quickly then I might clean between strings. Oil is not necessary at all if you're going to shoot it again; I push a dry patch down last so the bore is swabbed of any oil/cleaner. With a heavy barrel you should be able to do 5 shots easily, but then let it cool for 5-10 minutes before my next string. Heavy barrels don't heat up as quickly but they also don't cool down as quickly so I try not to let them get too warm if I can help it.

May 21, 2015, 11:13 PM	#16
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Oil in the bore when shooting is not a good thing. If you oil the bore, run a dry patch or two down it before firing. I only oil if the gun is going to sit in the safe for a while. Then when it comes out to go shoot, a dry patch or two down the bore, and its ready to rumble.

May 22, 2015, 12:02 AM	#19
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	More rifles are ruined by excessive cleaning than those that are just left fouled. I clean after a range session, regardless how many rounds were fired. A bullet will always go to a different point of aim right after cleaning than when the barrel is fouled. Modern firearms using non-corrosive components don't need to be cleaned as soon as you get home. Or at the range. If a rifle won't shoot good groups fouled, get it rebareled. A word about cleaning. Get a good SOLID cleaning rod and spear tipped jags. Clean from the breach using a bore guide. Use tight fitting patches with caliber specific jags so you put a lot of pressure on the sides of the patches. Get a gun vise so you can use both hands to guide the cleaning rod instead of trying to to hold the rifle with one hand while trying to push the rod with the other. Some rifles, like lever guns and autos, have to cleaned from the muzzle. Then a tapered rod guide has to be held against the muzzle to center the rod. Failure to do that will wear the rifling at the muzzle on one side. Don't even think about one of those rope cleaners. That rope can and will pick up abrasives in the weave, then that crap gets dragged down past that precious rifling each time you clean with it. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

May 22, 2015, 03:14 AM	#20
Mozella Member Join Date: April 17, 2015 Posts: 83	You can minimize some variation by shooting "round robin" style. Yesterday I was testing 6 different seating depths. I loaded 60 identical rounds, differing only in seating depths, ten rounds at each depth I was interested in testing. I printed an 8 1/2" x 11" card with six small targets, one target for each of the 6 different seating depths. I shot them in sequence, one round at a time for each of the different seating depths. This requires that you carefully position the correct round in your ammo box when you're loading and label them properly so you can keep track of what's what. You need to pay attention at the range too. I repeated cycling through the six targets until each one had five hits. In other words, rather than shoot five identical rounds in a row at target one, I shot only one round, moved to the next target and shot a round which was seated slightly longer, and so on, making sure that as I fired each round, I launched it at the correct target. That way I ended up with a five round group on each target, but spread out over time to equalize things like wind, barrel temperature, fouling, etc. Actually, I wasn't equalizing so much as spreading possible errors evenly among the 6 test subjects, but you get the idea. Then I switched to card #2 and did the same thing for the remaining 30 rounds. I went home with two cards, each with five shot groups for each of the 6 variables I was testing. The variations were small, but after scanning the targets, doing some careful computer scoring, and then analyzing the data in M.S. Excel (along with making several graphs), I was able to detect a clear winner. As you might suspect, during my test the conditions changed from dead calm to a light breeze, the barrel warmed up and cooled down a number of times, and the degree of fouling changed too. Had I not used this round robin style of testing, I wouldn't have as much confidence that I properly extracted the test results I was looking for.