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Old May 31, 2017, 10:50 AM   #26
doofus47
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Lessons I learned from this.

JoeSixPack:
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If I was one of the guys killed and I was armed, damn straight I'd have drawn my weapon.. further more I'd have no problem taking a shot.
I saw the story and I've thought it over a bit. When something like this happens, I like to sync up with my wife about what I'd do.

I told her that I'd probably not have drawn until the BG either started beating the women or stabbing someone. I know: too late.

But I've seen this episode before in Portland. It seems every time I go downtown there on business, there's some guy walking down the street and screaming at the clouds. I always cross the street when I see that sort of person coming. So, if some guy is yelling on a train, even if he's yelling at a person, I'd probably not do anything--it's part of the social fabric of that warped town. Heck it might be part of the social fabric of any large city. This is probably why people in NYC don't make eye contact.

And part of this reticence to get involve involves human limitations: as pointed out by others here, one really doesn't know how this started. The other is legal. As judge Bean pointed out, my freedom to swing my fist ends at the other guy's nose. If he's just shouting, even crappy racist stuff... I'm not a police office and it's not my job to curtail his behavior SO LONG AS HE'S NOT HURTING ANYONE. Pulling a firearm on a person who's not doing anything life-threatening could be a ticket to jail, depending on the local DA's perspective (and I'm betting the Portland DA doesn't ride in crowded trains next to shouting maniacs).

Moreover, when people seem to be shouting generally abusive comments and then focusing on a victim while ranting, then back to the crowd, that behavior screams to me "looking for a fight." I agree that the virtuous behavior was to stand up for the victims of this racist bully, but I think that this guy was ready for a fight and the good samaritans really weren't.

The other lesson here which the samaritans learned too late might be good deeds and intentions and owning the moral high ground won't automatically carry the day.
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Old May 31, 2017, 11:03 AM   #27
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In a panicked crowd the first thought should be 'never fall down ' ! to do so can mean your death !
There was a department that lost an unmarked officer ,killed by a uniformed officer .The uniformed officer saw a person with a gun and fired. After that the department rule was the first uniformed officer on scene takes charge.
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Old May 31, 2017, 11:40 AM   #28
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This kind of situation evolves by the second,and there are infinite possibilities of situation and people involved. Even a square and perfect presentation with an almost guaranteed lethal hit to the bad guy presents a potential pass through that could kill an infant. Risks of killing innocents are huge, risk of innocents dying because of the attacker may be worse.

I'm not sure whether any discussion could prepare a person for that shot.
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Old May 31, 2017, 12:24 PM   #29
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I'm going to elaborate one something here. If you are convinced that you must take action either because of a moral duty to those around you or because you feel you must to protect your own safety it is beneficial to have more than one "tool" in your toolbox. It is also necessary to know what risks you are willing to take ahead of time so you are not lost in thought should action be required.

I apologize to those around me. I carry my gun, keep myself in shape, and have practiced martial arts to protect me and mine. I have a moral obligation to provide a safe workplace for those I have offered it to. I have a moral obligation to those I have invited to a safe haven in my house or business. I have a moral obligation to my wife and children regardless of where we are. I have no moral obligation to the general public.

I am retreating should I be able to do so in a way that protects those I have an obligation to and myself. Otherwise times are desperate and direct action is going to be taken. Do I have any intent of opening fire in a crowded commuter train? No. The risk of damage is far too high. But I will attempt violence against my attacker in a manner that is hopefully effective and allows those who I am obligated to to retreat.

The problem I see is that sometimes those with a gun do not see that there are other tools available to them that they should be familiar with. Not all circumstances call for violence and not all violence calls for a gun.
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Old May 31, 2017, 04:24 PM   #30
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Lohmann, do you believe in God? The ten commandments? Are you your brother's keeper? Do you love your neighbor as you do yourself?

You do have a moral obligation to assist and defend your brethren in humanity. Jumping into flood waters to save someone who is already beyond rescue is one thing.

Turning tail and running while people die, if you had a chance to save those lives, that is accounted for in the bible. The apostle Peter, in fear for his safety,turned hi back on Jesus and denied knowing him. He lied to p preserve his own safety.

You brought the morality of abandoning people to die into the discussion, and here are a number of answers. You don't have to throw your life away, but you do have a moral obligation to defend your fellow man.
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Old May 31, 2017, 04:29 PM   #31
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....you do have a moral obligation to defend your fellow man.
And that starts with "first, do no harm".

Firing a gun may not fulfill your moral obligation.
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Old May 31, 2017, 04:43 PM   #32
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I don't recall saying that shooting was part of that moral obligation. Does a person have an opportunity to save lives? Can it be done with acceptable risks?

This argument can be picked apart and possible scenarios can be created until the end of time, but there is one incontrovertible fact.

If you are a Christian, if you love your brother and sister, if you care about right and wrong, running without a concern for others isn't the right thing to do. I do the Christian thing.

When I see a single cop make a stop, I pull over as far back as I can and watch. I leave if backup comes. Out of many cops to whom I have spoken about Chris, not a single one has disagreed with this. Traffic stops are dangerous. I already owe my life to a cop. I have a moral duty.
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Old May 31, 2017, 07:12 PM   #33
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If you wish to discuss the religious aspects I will do so in a private message. I reject the assertion that Christianity as modeled by the words and deeds of Christ can be used as a logical defense for a moral obligation to participate in violence.

One has to decide what his or her tactics and choices will be. My suggestion is that engaging such an aggressor in a crowd with a firearm creates a large chance of collateral damage. What risk of collateral damage are you, personally, willing to accept. I would also suggest if someone feels the need to chose to participate in such violence in the face of an attack he or she have tools available other than a firearm.

The why aside (such as a moral obligation) the how to engage becomes important and may be largely impacted by your acceptance of risk of collateral damage
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Old May 31, 2017, 08:20 PM   #34
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I doubt that a moral or ethical argument would be of any consequence in a legal hearing.
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Old May 31, 2017, 08:53 PM   #35
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And that starts with "first, do no harm".
That's the Hippocratic Oath.
It's not "defending" anyone other than yourself.
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Old May 31, 2017, 10:31 PM   #36
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I think the, "first, do no harm" quote that is often attributed​ to the Hippocratic Oath is interesting and relevant to this discussion. In the link from the Harvard Medical School website below we see that, "there is no clear priority given to the avoidance of harm over the goal of providing help."

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/f...m-201510138421

It talks about the risks of surgery and some diagnostic test that do cause some harm in the process of healing. It concludes with a couple of thoughts that are relevant to this discussion:


Ultimately, it is also a reminder that doctors should neither overestimate their capacity to heal, nor underestimate their capacity to cause harm.

The fact is that when difficult, real-time decisions must be made, it’s hard to apply the “first, do no harm” dictum because estimates of risk and benefit are so uncertain and prone to error.


The decision to use deadly force to stop a lethal attack on others when retreat or avoidance is possible is both a moral and ethical one. I pray I never find myself in that spot.
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Old June 1, 2017, 08:53 AM   #37
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And as I said, the situation is intense, fraught with literal life and death danger for numerous people, and evolving with every passing second.

Nobody, literally nobody, can make a truly careful decision in those first few seconds. it will be reflex.
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Old June 1, 2017, 11:46 AM   #38
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Briandg I would assume that by "reflex" you mean that your decision has already been made that you will intervene immediately in any situation where you determine help is needed to stop an attack. I respect your decision and believe there are situations where this course of action is the right thing to do.

I also believe that there are situations where reflex action without understanding and knowledge is neither moral nor ethical. Just like a doctor who treats symptoms before assessing the underlying cause, reflexively joining a gunfight that doesn't threaten you or yours may make matters worse.
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Old June 1, 2017, 12:49 PM   #39
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I'm not talking about myself at all. Not remotely.

Reflex? Nobody can be in the situation of a big, crowded park, dance floor, restaurant, and stop a threat by just yanking out a gun and shooting the threat.

If you hear an unexpected shot, it's going to burn about a second, maybe two, just to turn your head to the source of the sound and put eyes on it. Getting a solid look at the guy will take another, finding the gun, determining whether or not the guy is a hostile will take maybe two, maybe five, checking background for collateral and possibly moving to avoid it,and finally making the final determination of shoot/dont shoot.

Ten, maybe as long as twenty or thirty seconds before an "average"guy can be ready to fire. Unless, as I said, this average guy just caps the guy who's holding the gun without spending a lot of effort assessing the situation.

Let's say a guy hears shouting and shots, but it's muffled by train noise. Turns and sees the back end of a guy in a blue windbreaker.

Guy with a gun, shots fired, this hypothetical average guy shoots the attacker in the back to save everyone else in the place.

Wow, his reflexive instinctual actions just killed a transit cop who just shot another bad guy who average didn't see.

This isn't a situation like a mugging by a guy with a gun,it's a situation that even cool heads and professional training can and do let people down.

The only thing that I can suggest in good faith is that in the situation, I'd have a hard time pulling the trigger. People might die as I decide. Ill have to live with that.
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Old June 1, 2017, 01:41 PM   #40
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I have been trained to first seek cover. The idea is that if you are dead you have let your family and everyone else down. There are a lot of real easy ways to make mistakes that can get you killed or in jail for an unjustified shooting. Any situation that you can imagine has one big fault - you already know who the bad guy is - he came from your mind. Real life is very different. Unless you have witnessed the whole event you have no idea who the good guys are or who the bad guys are. You don't even know how many bad guys there are and where they are.
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Old June 1, 2017, 05:18 PM   #41
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I'm not an LEO, but am a US Army combat vet. I'm not sure what the "correct" answer to this problem is, but my primary consideration would be to eliminate the threat. My secondary consideration would be collateral damage from pass-though bullets.

As someone else mentioned, every situation is different and there is not a "one size fits all" solution for this problem.
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Old June 1, 2017, 05:33 PM   #42
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Ton's post number 19 is excellent and very well said. Thank you


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Being Armed Is A Mindset, Not A Physical Condition - Rob Pincus

NRA, GOA
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Old June 1, 2017, 08:46 PM   #43
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You can discuss tactics and scenarios all day long and nothing will get decided.

The basic premise boils down to this. If you were in a situation such as the one being discussed, would you want a gun or not?
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Old June 1, 2017, 09:02 PM   #44
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This is just a question, I'm looking for input and I don't have the solution. Would a knife have been a better tool than a gun in the Portland scenario?
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Old June 1, 2017, 10:31 PM   #45
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I'll take a gun over a knife any day of the week, thank-you very much.

Knife fights tend to get real bloody and stuff.
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Old June 1, 2017, 10:54 PM   #46
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I would want a gun, a knife, mace, taser, hand held stunner, expanding baton, hair spray, fish net, ANYTHING THAT COULD H AVE BEEN USED AGAINST THAT FOOL. Having a weapon doesn't mean anything, you don't have to use it, but not having one or having no skills limits your chances of staying safe.

What we are specifically talking about here, now, was a relatively open space, one belligerent, and plenty of people who could have helped.

Unless I'm mistaken, these men tried to talk him down and the torqued up nutcase used a knife to kill these unarmed men.

He was crazy, aggressive, out of control. That made him vulnerable to a brutal, no holds barred attack. All you had to do was out think him and get past his weapon.

In the exact scenario that I expect happened, there were people in front of him, behind him as well. A strong man who knew how to cause injury, with or without a weapon, would have been in a position to stop that threat as soon as it turned violent if he wasn't the immediate focus.

Now that we have specifically addressed one nut with a knife in a locked train car, does the run for cover and save yourself argument hold water? In that specific situation, everyone was vulnerable to dying. There was no cover. No escape.

I would love to carry a full compliment of weapons, even an old medieval flanged mace. Draw whatever you have, use whatever skills you have, stop that threat before you're the only one left alive.

I genuinely expect that the people on that train couldn't even toss a possum out of the outhouse.
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Old June 1, 2017, 11:24 PM   #47
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I think having a less than lethal weapon, such as a good pepper spray, might have been helpful in this situation. I would also recommend some type of self-defense training if you are physically capable. A bad guy with a knife is going to reach you before you can hit him. Legs are longer than arms though and may create some distance. While I certainly would not like to go hand versus knife or even knife versus knife, having training and practice on these skills could prove useful.

It is easy to say what I might have done (while I sit behind the safety of my computer), but I don't believe I would sit idly by watching people around me get killed and wait my turn. If I had a clear idea of what was happening and who the threat was, I would "probably" pull my gun and order the guy to stop. Any hesitation on his part to drop the weapon or cease aggression would probably result in me pulling the trigger. I know that there is possible collateral damage, but inaction could also lead to more deaths, including my own.
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Old June 2, 2017, 07:05 AM   #48
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The basic premise boils down to this. If you were in a situation such as the one being discussed, would you want a gun or not?
I carry a gun because I would rather have a gun and not need it than not have a gun and need it. In the situation being discussed I would have done everything possible (controlled retreat) to avoid needing a gun.


Quote:
Would a knife have been a better tool than a gun in the Portland scenario?
This is a hard question. The first rule of unarmed combat: ARM YOURSELF. Personally I am not proficient with a knife but from what I am seeing the people who attempted to confront the aggressor were in reasonable physical condition. I would not have drawn my pocket knife in the situation at hand though if I had something to replicate a stick I would have been glad to have it.
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Old June 2, 2017, 08:17 AM   #49
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Any situation that you can imagine has one big fault - you already know who the bad guy is - he came from your mind. Real life is very different. Unless you have witnessed the whole event you have no idea who the good guys are or who the bad guys are. You don't even know how many bad guys there are and where they are.
That bears repeating.
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Old June 2, 2017, 10:48 AM   #50
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Thanks OldMarksman... I think you just did.
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