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Old September 5, 2009, 09:08 AM   #76
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A couple of points as I see it.

It's kind of amazing how many people are justifying NOT shooting.
Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire. The

If a mom had shot the BG we would all be applauding her.
If it was a Dad we would all be asking why he had to shoot.

If you carry a gun your mind had better be equipped to handle the fact your may have to use it.

Yeah, I know I'll be flamed

AFS
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Old September 5, 2009, 09:10 AM   #77
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I want to see the video from the Wallyworld security cameras.
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Old September 5, 2009, 09:18 AM   #78
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The best tactic would have been for the mother to have made some attempt to quiet the child or otherwise diffuse the situation. A simple,"I'm sorry if she's disturbing you." followed by some action to try to calm the kid down would have done it. If the kid was sick then a simple statement like, "I'm sorry if she's disturbing you, she doesn't feel well" would also have done it.

Everyone understands that sometimes kids are sick and cranky and throw tantrums. If the parent is addressing the situation with the child most people will empathize with them. If the parent is just ignoring it then people wonder how the parent can be so inconsiderate of others. The guy in this case was obviously wrong for striking someone else's child but the mother failing to recognize the disturbance he child was causing, and take steps to address it, is what allowed the situation to escalate.
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Old September 5, 2009, 09:34 AM   #79
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There is no justification for slapping a 2 year old. A pop on the butt ok. Slapping his face? No way
None

AFS

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Old September 5, 2009, 09:40 AM   #80
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PAX???

What's your take on this Kathy? From a mother's point of view...
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Old September 5, 2009, 11:39 AM   #81
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Funny how many people feel it justified to use lethal force against a dog attacking a child but are so hesitant about using lethal force against a stranger beating their own child about the head repeatedly.

The potential injury to the child is the same (significant bodily harm or death).

I personally don't consider an adult stranger attacking my 2 year old child all that different from a dog attacking my child in that they both need to be stopped immediately before causing real harm.
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Old September 5, 2009, 11:40 AM   #82
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:01 PM   #83
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jgcoastie ~

Just got here. Let's see...

First: There is no behavior that a 2-year-old can do in public that justifies a stranger assaulting that child. NONE.

If a stranger threatens my child with bodily harm, I'm leaving the area immediately (as this mom apparently did). Leaving the area of the initial confrontation was the correct thing to do. She didn't stay to argue -- she left. Good call. In hindsight, a better call would have been to leave the store entirely, but leaving the area should have taken care of the problem.

Disparity of force is clearly present when an adult male attacks a 2 year old child. That is, he could kill the child or maim her for life with a single blow to the face. Post #39 spelled this out very clearly, and is worth a re-reading for those who doubt.

The mother has already retreated with her child; further retreat is no longer possible since the stranger now has his hands on the child; and a lethal-force assault against the child is underway NOW. The assault must be stopped immediately.

Disparity of force is present between the mom and the assailant. Courts have generally ruled that an adult male does possess the ability to maim or kill an adult female with his bare hands, even in the absence of weapons.

Does she have other options? We can speculate and ask "what if" she had martial-arts techniques available to her, but the stranger is threatening the life of her child right now, and she doesn't have time to run out and take a class. She must act now to save the child from the assault. Similarly, even if the mom has a canister of OC spray, there is no way to use that spray on the stranger without also spraying the baby. Is it reasonable to expect a mom to do that to her baby?

"Just use the cell phone." Several people have opined that the mom should simply have called the cops. That's good, but the dangerous assault is happening right now -- not ten minutes from now. The child's brain can be lethally or permanently injured at any moment, and the danger increases exponentially with each blow. Even a single blow is dangerous, and the assault is continuing.

Therefore, deadly force is justified to stop the dangerous assault. She has no other reasonable options immediately available to her that would prevent life-threatening harm to the child from the assailant's actions.

However. Despite the fact that lethal force would be justified, it may not be possible. What do the angles look like? What are the chances of the bullet striking the child as well as the assailant?

Note carefully: if the child were with the dad instead of the mom, disparity of force would not be present between the dad and the assailant. Adult males may have the luxury of going to fisticuffs in this situation.

But the mom does not.

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Old September 5, 2009, 12:03 PM   #84
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but that being said, there ain't a whole lot you can do when the situation involves an infant. A 2 year old? Some, but age 2 is a little young for the child to have any more than a basic understanding of "No, (insert child's name here) don't do that." or whatever phrase works for you.
Yes, there is - you spank them on their little butts and sternly tell them to stop the screaming. Crying in one thing, but if you can't either control your 2 year old screaming inside of a store, or take the kid outside, then you're an idiot. FWIW, it's only be a few years since I had to deal with my own two year old - so the experience is fresh in my memory. I NEVER let my child carry on and disrupt others in a public place for more than 1 minute.

I would never touch someone else's child and they better not touch mine. Regardless, that doesn't excuse parents who are too timid or idiotic to control their kids - YES, even a 2 year old!
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:04 PM   #85
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As the father of four children i can testify to the fact that no one act of god or congress could stop a 2 year old child from crying sometime.
And further more even saying your tempted to smack anothers child is insanity.
I can garuantee that if you even look at my children with intent to smack them around you better man up !!!!!
The offense to the child in the wal mart was cowardly at best and the man needs prison time for his own lack of restraint .


And spanking them in public not only is against tha law(in which im a firm believer in spanking mine )
but do you really think they are going to just stop fussing or crying after you spank them.
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:12 PM   #86
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Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire.
Quote:
There is no justification for slapping a 2 year old. A pop on the butt ok. Slapping his face? No way
I'm a little confused here Airforce. If it's a forcible felony justifying a shooting response what difference does it make if this alleged felony is perpetrated on the face or the butt ?

I'll have to admit, I have no idea what a forcible felony is.
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:51 PM   #87
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....but do you really think they are going to just stop fussing or crying after you spank them.
The frist time this happens, no. You warn, warn again, then spank them if necessary and be prepared to leave the public place. But, once you follow through with spanking your child, they learn that you mean business when you warn them in the future.

I have only had to spank my child at most 3 times in 6 years.

Quote:
Striking a child is a forcible felony. A parent or any bystander is justified in stopping it by gunfire.
The bottom line - no way in hell am I shooting someone if they ever happen to slap my child. I don't give a crap what the law says, I ain't doing it! I may beat the living tar out of the idiot, but I am simply unwilling to take someone's life over it. And, I really hope that no one else here would either.

Last edited by Skans; September 5, 2009 at 12:57 PM.
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:57 PM   #88
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I still don't get it. It's not about a crying kid, like I mention before. It's about an assault, the child happened to be the victim of that assault.
Is it justifiable for the mother to protect her child from this crazy person with lethal force. I think so as PAX and many others stated earlier. Anything could of set this guy off.
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Old September 5, 2009, 12:59 PM   #89
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I still don't get it. It's not about a crying kid, like I mention before. It's about an assault, the child happened to be the victim of that assault.
How about you pick the child up and walk the other way! If the man continues in persuit, then that's a different story. This is not a life-threatening situation, as it was described.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:04 PM   #90
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Pax put it perfectly

Pax, you are 100% right.

An adult hitting a child is a serious threat to the kid's well being.

My son is now 10, and let me put it this way, if a stranger tries to harm him as described in this incident ( or in any other circumstances), I will not use a weapon,only my hands and boots, but I will hurt that person, plenty.

If this were to happen when my kid is with my wife, this is another story and he will need professional medical care, and fast.

Regarding T&T, this is where it may be good to mention that we both carry a small Oleor Capsicum spray can ( the type that squirts) it gives you one more non-lethal option.


Brgds,
Danny

Last edited by Dannyl; September 5, 2009 at 01:41 PM.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:06 PM   #91
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My first response would be to get between the man and child. The guy can hurt you but is going to have a really hard time hurting the kid. I think most people in a shopping situation with mom in full "Cat" mode is going to back-off. If the mom was on the other side of the cart, the whole thing probably occurred before she could get there. If she was on the other side probably drawing a weapon would also be tough without putting the kid in hazard along with possibly other shoppers.

To reverse the issue and tatics a little.

What do you do if it is not a stranger hitting your kid but a stranger and their kid getting hit? Not a mom giving the kid a spanking or tap on the arm sort of thing, but a full out beating in public. Do you just call 911 or do you intervene?
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:08 PM   #92
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Skans How is this not a life threatening situation? The Man could have easily killed that child with his hands. That is just a fact.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:11 PM   #93
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How about you pick the child up and walk the other way! If the man continues in persuit, then that's a different story.
Skans,

Read the story again. She did walk away from the initial confrontation. He did pursue her.

http://www.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/man...type=ynews_rss

Quote:
This is not a life-threatening situation, as it was described.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=39

On a child that small, even a single blow to the head can be life-threatening. Abusive head trauma is the single most common cause of death by abuse among children under three.

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Old September 5, 2009, 01:17 PM   #94
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If I had witnessed this....

....I would have smacked the man across the face and said, "Doesn't feel good does it?"

Hey, it works for Chuck Norris.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:39 PM   #95
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Not all children are alike and some dont respond to any acts like spanking .There are some who have had suitable medical reasons and brain malfunctions that dont allow them to respond to anything anyone might do(autism,mentally challenged,ect..)To even respond by saying it was the mothers fault is foolish .This man was posing a threat to both of those people and capible of much more than slapping .
Did he pose a life threatning sitaution............. HELL YES HE DID !!!!!
To say shooting him is not an option is as well foolish .
How would you know he didnt have a weapon ?You wouldnt and i dont play poker with my families life PERIOD.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:47 PM   #96
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Oooohhhh....

Everything about this story angers me deeply. I have a little girl who is about to turn 3, and she is the most beautiful, innocent little girl in the world. I believe that deadly force would be absolutely justified here. That son of a ***** not only laid his hands on a young child but someone elses child. My daughter has had one minor spanking in her life, and even that was with a padded diaper, not hard atall, and I feel bad about that! The fact that this childs mother let her child be struck 4 times in the face is absurd, the man should never have had the chance for that... after receiving verbal threats, I would have given a warning about touching my child, a very very very colorful and loud warning, and if the threat continued i would treat it as danger to my childs life and acted accordingly. Hurting young, defensless children is the lowest of low....
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:53 PM   #97
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Since he was able to get 4 slaps off in what I'm guessing is a short period of time, I'm wondering if they were both palm slaps and back of the hand slaps. Either or can cause serious harm to a child and it should not be taken lightly. I'd first try to get in between him and my child and if that doesn't stop him or he continues to go after the child then I would feel that using deadly force would be justified.

It doesn't take much to harm a 2 year old. A few hard slaps to the face can cause breaking of the bones, a concussion, and a number of other things...some of which can be fatal.
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Old September 5, 2009, 01:59 PM   #98
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digdeep74,

Please think again,

1. Are you sure that it is not possible to subdue a 61 Y.O without having to shoot him?

2.more importantly, this took place inside a crowded mall; Do you really believe that it is a good idea to use a firearm in a crowded place unless it is really your last resort?

3. IF you tried to subdue him (I say subdue because sounds nicer than "beat the daylight out of him" ) and he produced a knife / gun, then you may be justified to use lethal force, which can still be problematic in a crowded place.

I personally dont like the thought of using a firearm in a crowded place, even if it is legal to do so in the given circumstances.

Brgds,
Danny
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Old September 5, 2009, 03:52 PM   #99
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Quote:
digdeep74,

Please think again,

1. Are you sure that it is not possible to subdue a 61 Y.O without having to shoot him?

2.more importantly, this took place inside a crowded mall; Do you really believe that it is a good idea to use a firearm in a crowded place unless it is really your last resort?

3. IF you tried to subdue him (I say subdue because sounds nicer than "beat the daylight out of him" ) and he produced a knife / gun, then you may be justified to use lethal force, which can still be problematic in a crowded place.

I personally dont like the thought of using a firearm in a crowded place, even if it is legal to do so in the given circumstances.

Brgds,
Danny
Lets not get off topic here. We are talking about a mother's ability to defend her child against a grown man. You are assuming that the 61 year old man is frail and weak, but I did not get that from anything I read. The article also doesn't mention that the mother was weak and defenseless, but on average, most grown men are stronger than women. If this guy was pursuing your wife after she attempted to leave, would you not want her to defend herself?

The attack could not be prevented even though she tried. Therefor, the attack must be stopped. If the mother was unable to do it without a weapon, then I believe that one should have been used. I would want my wife to issue a stern warning to immediately stop hitting the child before shooting the guy, but if he kept on, I would expect her to shoot.

I agree that it is annoying when kids are fussing in public, but I sure as heck would not tolerate a stranger slapping my child.

I think some of the people here are assuming that we would pull out our guns and immediately shoot the guy. For most people here, it would probably play out like this...

1. Issue a stern verbal warning, possibly with some colorful language.
2. Attempt to move away from the guy.
3. Attempt to intercept/block the guy if he moved toward your child.
4. Use physical force if there was not a major disparity of force should he attempt to hit your child.
5. If there is a major disparity of force, draw a weapon.
6. Issue a final warning to stop hitting the child.
7. Shoot the guy if he does not stop the attack.

This is more than reasonable in my opinion and I'm sure most LEO would probably agree.
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Old September 5, 2009, 04:25 PM   #100
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Note carefully: if the child were with the dad instead of the mom, disparity of force would not be present between the dad and the assailant.
Something tells me that if there had been a dad present, this never would have happened. This guy was looking for an easy target, and a lone mom with a screaming tot is a perfect one. The kind of guy who abuses a child is into domination and power, which means he probably wouldn't have picked on someone his own size.
Maybe thats why I said on the first page that I would have immediately moved between my child and the man. The threat did not justify drawing for me, but for this lone lady, or anyone who feels overmatched and threatened, nobody can tell you not to draw.
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