12-gauge pump or .357 lever action better for HD? - Page 2

matthew261 · March 13, 2012, 09:22 AM

Anything shot by 00 Buck from 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity.

Hook686 · March 13, 2012, 09:43 AM

I think anything shot by a .357 magnum 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity.

matthew261 · March 13, 2012, 09:53 AM

Touche Hook! I'm a .357 devotee. I was responding more to the sentiment that buckshot might not be an effective stopper at longer distances within a home.

TenRing · March 13, 2012, 10:57 AM

A shorter barrel for your shotgun is preferred because it presents less of a lever to your assailant. In a home invasion, you are likely to have close contact with the perpetrator and you don't want him (or her, since we just had a rash of women burglars in my area) to get a chance to grab a longer barrel and pull the gun away from you.

If you go with the shotgun as well you should, then I would definitely recommend a 18" barrel with no chokes, just standard cylinder bore.

The 1894 is a good choice since it is higher capacity but you won't need the range of a rifle unless you're defending a farm, which you aren't. The shotgun slide action is likely to be faster on follow-up for most people.

C0untZer0 · March 13, 2012, 12:44 PM

I agree that what's most important is what you are more proficient with, but assuming you can hit your target with either, in terms of wounding, a 2¾" 12ga shotshell with 16 pellets of #1 Buck has a cross sectional area of 1.13 square inches and produces significantly more effective wound trauma.

Federal's FLITECONTROL® ammo keeps the shot relatively tight, but you'd have to pattern it at your range as has been said.

Tactical Jackalope · March 13, 2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Which have you trained with in HD scenarios and usage under stress?

Kind of more important than the gun. Either would work and I opine there isn't a whit of difference for the well trained good person with the correct mindset.

Exactly that! I have an AR-15 by my side sometimes along with my Glock 21 OR SIG 226...Since my finger broke...The AR has been out. Long story..Easier to shoot the rifle since the recoil won't go to my right hand in full. Or hands alone in general really. I have my body for it. These metal pins come out in about 2 days then I need therapy to make it normal again. BUT bottom line is..Even when I'm 100% again..I'd choose the G21 over my Mossberg 590 because I've trained heavily with my handguns for the scenario. The AR as well..but c'mon now...I have neighbors.

So Glock 21 with 3 mags. That should do the trick

Whatever you're the most comfy with. I went into a personal view of my current situation.

ALSO! Train with your off hand every time you go to that range. This is a devastating injury for me and my trigger finger.

tlm225 · March 13, 2012, 02:32 PM

Either gun would serve you well. Of the two I would chose the Marlin since the shotgun presently has a 24" barrel. Install an 18" barrel and I would lean towards the shotgun by a small margin.

themalicious0ne · March 13, 2012, 02:48 PM

Both are great HD rounds. I personally would go with between the two, the shotgun. Especially using #4 buck shells. I have done my own personal research in the past on this and have found #4 buck to be the most powerful while least penatration. It will have a more difficult time penetrating your walls especially considering if you have other people(children) in your house. you may not be able to fire in the most wanted direction and need to consider a miss or penetration. i have also fired a .357 HP in my house before by accident

and let me tell you it still has penatration.

mavracer · March 13, 2012, 04:54 PM

I feel confident that either would serve the intended purpose. I have a rack hidden in my closet for two guns. Quite often there'll be a lever carbine and a shotgun there. As for ammo if I were to use my 1894c for SD I'd probably use 145gr silvertips and shotguns get buckshot.

Panfisher · March 13, 2012, 07:18 PM

Keep the rifle by the door, and the shotgun in the "safe room" (or visa-versa), then you will have one near entrance to house, and if you can't get to it in time, you retreat to the safe room and the other is there in case the badguy should try to enter, that would end poorly I would think for him. Practice with both until they are both comfortable and smooth to use. As for ammo- hard to argu with a #4 or larger buckshot at close range, for the .357 I would think that something along the lines of 125 gr HP would be pure evil out of a rifle at short range and just about any JHP load should work fine as long as the rifle will run it smooth and clean. Either one is gonna be loud in a house, not much you can do about that. Better to lose a little hearing than a lot of life.

I would be a little concerned about a safe room unless there were some upgrades or something solid in it to hide behind. (gun safes full of more guns work well).

Nnobby45 · March 13, 2012, 09:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdW2TAfN3mQ

PawPaw · March 14, 2012, 05:46 AM

Quote:

12-gauge pump or .357 lever action better for HD?

You could always use a 12-gauge lever, or a .357 pump, just to confuse the issue.

9ballbilly · March 14, 2012, 06:53 AM

My personal preference is for the shotgun. Either should work fine. Whichever you choose, PRACTICE with it.

C0untZer0 · March 14, 2012, 08:07 AM

Chiappa sells an 18.5" barrelled, lever shotgun that's 27.5" OAL:

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/2477

Seems neat, I just don't think that working it would be better than an auto-loader

Maybe the 1887's time has come and gone...

AH.74 · March 14, 2012, 09:47 AM

I love my Marlin 1894C but would choose my 870 shotgun for HD without any hesitation. The Marlin is usually in the safe. The 870 is almost never in the safe.

Moondew · March 14, 2012, 09:53 AM

One thing I found (during LE) was that an intruder/ unwanted "guest" would have 2nd thoughts about their presence when they hear the sound of the action working on a pump shotgun or in the case of a lever action, loading.

They quickly "reconsider"

zxcvbob · March 14, 2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

One thing I found (during LE) was that an intruder/ unwanted "guest" would have 2nd thoughts about their presence when they hear the sound of the action working on a pump shotgun or in the case of a lever action, loading.

How about the "click-it-y click" of a SAA revolver or double-barrel shotgun hammers? That's a pretty distinctive sound too, it's just not as loud.

Old Grump · March 14, 2012, 12:43 PM

You won't go wrong with either. 2 3/4" shell is more than enough power and 38 spcl with LSWC or JHP bullets will penetrate flesh and ruin a bump in the night boogerman plans for the foreseeable future without worrying about your bullets effect on the neighbors.

I am a rifleman by choice, pistol man by training and my house gun is still a shotgun, go figure.

Moondew · March 14, 2012, 12:47 PM

How about the "click-it-y click" of a SAA revolver or double-barrel shotgun hammers? That's a pretty distinctive sound too, it's just not as loud.

The extra noise, especially the "racking of the shell" in that shotgun or chink a clink is quite distinctive and any thug/ gangster can recognize it from videos and flixs!

Madcap_Magician · March 14, 2012, 01:58 PM

Well, the shotgun has a good reputation for home defense, of course. But it's probably not really any better from an overpenetration point of view and could be worse. 00 buck will easily go through your walls, and there will be more projectiles, too.

Also, the muzzle flash from the .357 lever gun is probably overrated. There's a ton of muzzle flash from a 2" or even a 4" .357 mag revolver, but out of an 18" barrel, you should see complete powder burn and not as much flash.

m&p45acp10+1 · March 14, 2012, 05:23 PM

I say use the one you are comfortable with. Either will more than do the job with proper shot placement. Though in a high stress situation is when it is difficult to fine aim. I keep my WingMaster loaded near the bed. I have a .45 ACP within reach when I am in bed and need a gun as of seconds ago.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 15, 2012, 10:06 AM

Anybody watch Michael Bane last night?

Buckshot rips right through barriers and across the street as does some handgun ammo.

Hornady Tap in an AR doesn't. That's why an 223 carbine is better than both the choices argued here. Flame on!

Yes, it may hurt you in court - so have your lawyer ready if it isn't a good shoot!

ronto · March 15, 2012, 02:36 PM

Since you'll be in a safe room, the choice is shotgun without a doubt.

Bubba in c.a. · March 15, 2012, 03:30 PM

First, they are both good choices, much better than any handgun.
On stopping power, I would lean to the shotgun at room distances.
On ease of functioning, I would lean to the shotgun but if you have more experience with the rifle action you may lean the other way.
On not having annoying rifle sights at room distances, I would lean to the shotgun.
On ease of reloading, capacity, I vote N/A. At room distances it doesn`t matter.
On cost, the shotgun is winner hands down.
On overpenetration risk, the hot 38 might be the better choice out of a rifle barrel.

I sold off all my pistol calibre rifles when I discovered that for me they had no real use--.223 works fine for anything I am likely to do.

You might also want to consider a dedicated 18" 20 ga shotgun always in its place and always loaded with buckshot and use your other one for hunting. They don`t cost much and you can get the same make and model as your other shotgun.

Another thought on ammo--the upgraded copper plated stuff that is so great a distances has a higher chance of overpenetration closeup. Plain lead pellets in a bullet that patterns well in your gun may be better at room distances.

Steviewonder1 · March 15, 2012, 09:55 PM

Neither, I will take any of my Handguns for Home Defense with either Cor-Bon DPX or Winchester Ranger T's 127GR +P+. Long weapons do not play well in close quarters. All of mine have lights on them, yes I will point a weapon at you with the light on. They are also quicker to reload when you miss.

March 13, 2012, 09:43 AM	#27
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	I think anything shot by a .357 magnum 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity. __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

March 13, 2012, 10:57 AM	#29
TenRing Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 427	Short barrels rule for H.D. A shorter barrel for your shotgun is preferred because it presents less of a lever to your assailant. In a home invasion, you are likely to have close contact with the perpetrator and you don't want him (or her, since we just had a rash of women burglars in my area) to get a chance to grab a longer barrel and pull the gun away from you. If you go with the shotgun as well you should, then I would definitely recommend a 18" barrel with no chokes, just standard cylinder bore. The 1894 is a good choice since it is higher capacity but you won't need the range of a rifle unless you're defending a farm, which you aren't. The shotgun slide action is likely to be faster on follow-up for most people. __________________ Gun control...that's when you learn to hit where you aim.

March 13, 2012, 02:32 PM	#32
tlm225 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 962	Either gun would serve you well. Of the two I would chose the Marlin since the shotgun presently has a 24" barrel. Install an 18" barrel and I would lean towards the shotgun by a small margin. __________________ All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

March 14, 2012, 12:43 PM	#43
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	You won't go wrong with either. 2 3/4" shell is more than enough power and 38 spcl with LSWC or JHP bullets will penetrate flesh and ruin a bump in the night boogerman plans for the foreseeable future without worrying about your bullets effect on the neighbors. I am a rifleman by choice, pistol man by training and my house gun is still a shotgun, go figure. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

March 14, 2012, 05:23 PM	#46
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I say use the one you are comfortable with. Either will more than do the job with proper shot placement. Though in a high stress situation is when it is difficult to fine aim. I keep my WingMaster loaded near the bed. I have a .45 ACP within reach when I am in bed and need a gun as of seconds ago. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

March 13, 2012, 09:22 AM	#26
matthew261 Member Join Date: February 9, 2012 Location: North Alabama Posts: 49	Anything shot by 00 Buck from 0-30 yards is going to be seriously discouraged from further activity.

March 13, 2012, 09:53 AM	#28
matthew261 Member Join Date: February 9, 2012 Location: North Alabama Posts: 49	Touche Hook! I'm a .357 devotee. I was responding more to the sentiment that buckshot might not be an effective stopper at longer distances within a home.

March 13, 2012, 12:44 PM	#30
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I agree that what's most important is what you are more proficient with, but assuming you can hit your target with either, in terms of wounding, a 2¾" 12ga shotshell with 16 pellets of #1 Buck has a cross sectional area of 1.13 square inches and produces significantly more effective wound trauma. Federal's FLITECONTROL® ammo keeps the shot relatively tight, but you'd have to pattern it at your range as has been said.

March 13, 2012, 02:48 PM	#33
themalicious0ne Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Location: Oconomowoc, WI Posts: 345	Both are great HD rounds. I personally would go with between the two, the shotgun. Especially using #4 buck shells. I have done my own personal research in the past on this and have found #4 buck to be the most powerful while least penatration. It will have a more difficult time penetrating your walls especially considering if you have other people(children) in your house. you may not be able to fire in the most wanted direction and need to consider a miss or penetration. i have also fired a .357 HP in my house before by accident and let me tell you it still has penatration.

March 13, 2012, 07:18 PM	#35
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	Keep the rifle by the door, and the shotgun in the "safe room" (or visa-versa), then you will have one near entrance to house, and if you can't get to it in time, you retreat to the safe room and the other is there in case the badguy should try to enter, that would end poorly I would think for him. Practice with both until they are both comfortable and smooth to use. As for ammo- hard to argu with a #4 or larger buckshot at close range, for the .357 I would think that something along the lines of 125 gr HP would be pure evil out of a rifle at short range and just about any JHP load should work fine as long as the rifle will run it smooth and clean. Either one is gonna be loud in a house, not much you can do about that. Better to lose a little hearing than a lot of life. I would be a little concerned about a safe room unless there were some upgrades or something solid in it to hide behind. (gun safes full of more guns work well).

March 13, 2012, 09:15 PM	#36
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdW2TAfN3mQ

March 14, 2012, 06:53 AM	#38
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	My personal preference is for the shotgun. Either should work fine. Whichever you choose, PRACTICE with it.

March 14, 2012, 08:07 AM	#39
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Chiappa sells an 18.5" barrelled, lever shotgun that's 27.5" OAL: http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/2477 Seems neat, I just don't think that working it would be better than an auto-loader Maybe the 1887's time has come and gone...

March 14, 2012, 09:47 AM	#40
AH.74 Junior member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Hermit's Peak Posts: 623	I love my Marlin 1894C but would choose my 870 shotgun for HD without any hesitation. The Marlin is usually in the safe. The 870 is almost never in the safe.

March 14, 2012, 09:53 AM	#41
Moondew Member Join Date: March 22, 2011 Location: LA Posts: 28	One thing I found (during LE) was that an intruder/ unwanted "guest" would have 2nd thoughts about their presence when they hear the sound of the action working on a pump shotgun or in the case of a lever action, loading. They quickly "reconsider"

March 14, 2012, 12:47 PM	#44
Moondew Member Join Date: March 22, 2011 Location: LA Posts: 28	How about the "click-it-y click" of a SAA revolver or double-barrel shotgun hammers? That's a pretty distinctive sound too, it's just not as loud. The extra noise, especially the "racking of the shell" in that shotgun or chink a clink is quite distinctive and any thug/ gangster can recognize it from videos and flixs!

March 14, 2012, 01:58 PM	#45
Madcap_Magician Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 668	Well, the shotgun has a good reputation for home defense, of course. But it's probably not really any better from an overpenetration point of view and could be worse. 00 buck will easily go through your walls, and there will be more projectiles, too. Also, the muzzle flash from the .357 lever gun is probably overrated. There's a ton of muzzle flash from a 2" or even a 4" .357 mag revolver, but out of an 18" barrel, you should see complete powder burn and not as much flash.

March 15, 2012, 10:06 AM	#47
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Anybody watch Michael Bane last night? Buckshot rips right through barriers and across the street as does some handgun ammo. Hornady Tap in an AR doesn't. That's why an 223 carbine is better than both the choices argued here. Flame on! Yes, it may hurt you in court - so have your lawyer ready if it isn't a good shoot! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 15, 2012, 02:36 PM	#48
ronto Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2007 Location: Smack Dab in the Middle of Nowhere. Posts: 505	Since you'll be in a safe room, the choice is shotgun without a doubt. __________________ "We will do this: we will hang together, we will keep our organization, our arms, our discipline, our hatred of oppression, until one universal shout goes up from an admiring age that this Missouri Cavalry Division preferred exile to submission, death to dishonor". General Joseph O. Shelby, CSA (1830-1897) The only Confederate General who refused to surrender himself or his 1,000+ "Iron Brigade".

March 15, 2012, 03:30 PM	#49
Bubba in c.a. Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Posts: 49	First, they are both good choices, much better than any handgun. On stopping power, I would lean to the shotgun at room distances. On ease of functioning, I would lean to the shotgun but if you have more experience with the rifle action you may lean the other way. On not having annoying rifle sights at room distances, I would lean to the shotgun. On ease of reloading, capacity, I vote N/A. At room distances it doesn`t matter. On cost, the shotgun is winner hands down. On overpenetration risk, the hot 38 might be the better choice out of a rifle barrel. I sold off all my pistol calibre rifles when I discovered that for me they had no real use--.223 works fine for anything I am likely to do. You might also want to consider a dedicated 18" 20 ga shotgun always in its place and always loaded with buckshot and use your other one for hunting. They don`t cost much and you can get the same make and model as your other shotgun. Another thought on ammo--the upgraded copper plated stuff that is so great a distances has a higher chance of overpenetration closeup. Plain lead pellets in a bullet that patterns well in your gun may be better at room distances.

March 15, 2012, 09:55 PM	#50
Steviewonder1 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2009 Location: John's Creek, Georgia Posts: 328	Neither, I will take any of my Handguns for Home Defense with either Cor-Bon DPX or Winchester Ranger T's 127GR +P+. Long weapons do not play well in close quarters. All of mine have lights on them, yes I will point a weapon at you with the light on. They are also quicker to reload when you miss.