Call me a crazy carrier...

[rickyrick]

Feel for the next shot, that's called a flinch, isn't it?

When nerves and adrenaline take over, consitancy goes goes away.


As Deputy said from an LEO perspective, people aren't aware of all of their shots.

I am not saying that good quality HP ammo is bad not saying FMJ is bad.

All that I am saying if someone is proficient enough, they should be able to make the shot no matter what's in the pipe.

You should be able hit a human sized target at SELF DEFENSE range with a pistol you have never even fired before.

Whatever a person decides to load in his SD weapon is ok with me.

[Deputy Dog]

LT,

Cudos to you for practicing, Your welcome and thank you for the kind comments.... I'm not knocking you in anyway, if it appears that way, I appologize.... Most of the classes I have taken, involve bullets and vehicles, and to watch how bullets of all different types and diferent types of cover, grains and caliber are effected by glass and metal and other objects in the vehicle is shocking...
Shot placememnt is key in any gun fight, and until your involved in the situation where you needed to draw your weapon and point it at an individual in a deadly force scenario, you won't know whats going to happen to you physically and mentally... I have seen some mentally prepared dudes, that practice all the things you stated you practice(good Idea by the way) and when it came time to do the force on force scenarios, they froze up and paniced and got lit up like a christmas tree... Depending on angle, age of vehicle etc. etc....

~Deputy Dog

[LordTio3]

DeputyDog:

I am a firm proponent of the idea that nothing can prepare you to be capable in a situation better than EXPERIENCE in that particular type of situation. Because of this reason, I am expecially appreciative of contributors of your caliber.
As a martial artist, I am far and away from being a stranger to fighting. As a shooter, I am not a stranger to gunfire. But to be perfectly frank, I would really like, for the rest of my life, to be a stranger to situations combining those two factors. When I go into a fight, I know how I'm going to react. I've been there, I've reacted. When I go to the range, I know how I'll react. I've been there, I've reacted.

If I ever get into a gunfight, I really don't KNOW how I'll act. And I'll admit that. I've never been in a fight involving shooting, so I have no frame of reference. All anyone that hasn't been there can really do is speculate how we Think we're Most Likely to react and hope for the best... Which you pointed out doesn't always turn out that way, even for people you wouldn't expect it to happen to.

I guess my main point is that I tried to be sure to state conclusively that I do not do this out of arrogance and I don't presume to know how I'll react in a situation like this. It could go very well or I could accidently throw my pistol when I draw it. It's really like flipping a weighted coin. The more you prepare, the more you weight the coin in your favor. But it's still going to land heads-down sometimes.

As far as your experience with different bullets being affected by varying barriers to a number of degrees... I would be particularly interested in anything you had to offer about this. I really only have what I've read and experience with myself (mostly with HP's & FMJ 9mm's shooting through wooden and glass/sheet-metal barriers); and anything you could offer on this front would be met with great weight.

Thank you again for your contribution and service,
~LT

[wilkup]

I have heard of alternating between JHP and FMJ to get enough penetration depending on what the BG is wearing, but long ago when I began carrying I decided I would circumvent this issue. I went with a 10mm and don't have to worry about getting the deep penetration, even if I used JPHs for everything but the woods.
I think carrying 4 rounds of the leading JPHs with 11 "target" rounds as back up is:
1. a way to save money
2. a way to be different than everybody else
3. just crazy (like you said)

[shafter]

If all you need is five shots then why aren't you carrying a snubnose revolver?

You can't be serious when you say you'd shuck the hollowpoints to use the fmj's. If gunfight scenarios happen as fast as you say you'd never have the time to do this.

[Axel357]

"...that I don't anticipate needing."


The prerequisite train of thought for nearly every violent crime victim.

[DRShippy]

I think this was an interesting thread to start. Personally, I can see the value in having some FMJ rounds on me just in case some bizarre self-defense scenario required a bullet that could reliably penetrate the other guy's light cover. From the little I have read, it appears that modern high-end JHPs tend to perform quite a bit like their FMJ counterparts when penetrating a lot of simple building materials, so I'm guessing that any scenario that really requires FMJ rounds will be exceedingly rare. That being said, this is really just about being prepared.

I found this thread so interesting because I too have thought that it might be beneficial to have some FMJ rounds when I begin carrying. Personally, I think I'd rather carry them in an extra magazine on my belt. The mag holder I'll be most likely to carry can hold two magazines anyway, so I have considered loading the front one with more of the JHP I use for self-defense and the rear one with FMJ rounds. No idea if I'll really do this or not. In the incredibly-unlikely scenario that requires me to use my weapon, 26+1 rounds of JHPs will probably be more than enough to get the job done. If the bad guy did something really wacky like jump behind some sort of everyday object that only FMJ rounds could penetrate while still firing at me, it sure would be nice to reach out and touch him with the contents of that third magazine.

I personally would prefer the consistency of having just one type of round in each magazine, and making the incredibly-unlikely switch to FMJ by reaching for a whole mag of it. The tactical issues with your idea of loading a mixed mag have already been identified, but nobody who pointed those out really gave you credit for consistently practicing with the unique load that you carry. In my opinion, if you're proficient with a unique load, and you see some advantage in carrying it, your unique load is probably not going to get you killed when you come up against the average violent thug.

I'd still probably carry a minimum of one extra magazine in all situations though.

Just my dos centavos.

[Elvishead]

I think you should load 5 hp's instead of 4. It's a free coutry!

Get over it!

[AZAK]

how little they weigh

This is not the first time that you have mentioned this concerning aluminum cases. Are you contending that saving 1.4 ounces is really that crucial concerning your "load out"?

Blazer .45 auto Aluminum case @ 32 grains
.45 auto Brass case @ 86 grains
11 Al cases saving a total of 594 grains = 1.4 ounces
(And this is in .45 auto; have not shot much 9mm since they came out with the 10mm auto, so none on hand to weigh.)

So, I would imagine that the weight difference in 9mm would be even less.

I do realize that you are also using a lighter bullet weight; however, that only adds up to another 253 grains.

And considering that you are talking about a gun which weighs 21 ounces empty, the difference in weight is marginal at best (approx. 5 -10%).

Are you advocating saving in the neighborhood of 1-2 ounces as a positive attribute and worthy of consideration in your choice of "load out"?

[rickyrick]

".............The prerequisite train of thought for nearly every violent crime victim................."


I say don't be a victim.

[LordTio3]

"...that I don't anticipate needing."


The prerequisite train of thought for nearly every violent crime victim.

This is flawed thinking. I put on my gun and carry it around for 15 hours every day even if I don't anticipate needing it. Because yesterday, I didn't need it. The day before, I didn't need it. 2 years ago, I didn't need it. Tomorrow, I don't anticipate needing it.

But I still strap in on. And THAT's the difference.

I don't anticipate needing 16 rounds in a conflict.

But I still put them in there.

To mis-quote in this way is flawed thinking and simply displays that you've failed to read the thread in depth before extracting and commenting.

Wilkup:

I went with a 10mm and don't have to worry about getting the deep penetration, even if I used JPHs for everything but the woods.

... honestly... it's really hard to argue with that logic. Well stated, Sir. More power to the 10mm. It's a helluva load.


DRShippy:

Personally, I think I'd rather carry them in an extra magazine on my belt.

This is exactly what I started out doing; carrying one magaine of each load. But summers are very hot here, and I am often engaged in activities that are not conducive to carrying an extra magazine on my person. This is what prompted the outgrowth my current loadout of 5+11. I didn't necessarily WANT to do it this way, but I believe in the cost/benefit ratio that having the extra tools affords me.
Finally, once I decided that I would carry this way, I really decided that I had to train my hind-parts off to be able to be proficient in the practice thereof. So you and I seem to be on the same page, I've just tweaked the theory to fit my personal requirements.

AZAK:

Are you advocating saving in the neighborhood of 1-2 ounces as a positive attribute and worthy of consideration in your choice of "load out"?

For my purposes, yes I am advocating that 1-2 ounces "here and there" makes for a much more comfortable load for my particular purposes. Not many sheepdogs or civilians do the things that I do with my carry rig on. And the few ounces of difference in my firearm rig in particular affects less "how much it weighs" versus "how much it Plays". Not many people I've talked to about carrying concealed will fully load a Glock 19, strap up, and go running for over 2 miles. Believe me, at that point, having a comfortable rig that doesn't "jiggle" excessively with each step does wonders for it staying right where it needs to and staying properly concealed. This doesn't seem to be a problem for most other people. But once again, for my system, yes, it is a benefit that I'll gladly take.

Your LITERAL mileage may vary.

And please, if you are one of these, before you criticise or ridicule this particular point; try and "experience" it first. With an almost absolute certainty, after the first quarter of a mile, you'll be second guessing your criticism.

~LT

[rickyrick]

When you draw your gun as a civilian in a SD situation, You have already became a victim and you are in a last ditch effort to get yourself out.....

There are a lot of simple ways that you can avoid becoming a victim, therefore avoiding the use of your weopon...

I think a new thread should be started on that subject..

Sorry about any sarcasim in earlier posts, just got caught up in the moment.

[shafter]

I still can't undertand why you would choose blazer ammo for your carry gun

[jgcoastie]

Wow... Just, wow...

What do you do for a living LT3? What type of occupation do you have that has so strongly convinced you of the "need" to shoot through so many barriers?

Only shoot-outs I've ever seen where folks were having to shoot through car doors was on a movie or COPS re-runs...

Personally, off-duty, I carry a gun for SELF-DEFENSE when there is no other option. I don't carry a gun so I can get in shoot-outs and have to shoot through "barriers".

If you have actually done all the research which you claim, you would know that most SELF-DEFENSE shootings involve ranges of less than 15ft with nothing but air and opportunity between the perp and the victim. Most shootings are sudden acts that the perp does not expect and therefore does not have time to seek cover before being introduced to the victim's "little friend".

On the other hand, many POLICE-INVOLVED shootings have the distinct possibility of turning into stand-off type scenarios because police officers are highly visible and are always armed. The perp knows what's happening and is more likely to see the officer(s) coming and seek cover prior to any actual shooting begins.


Thus my question... What do you do for a living that has convinced you so strongly of the need to be able to punch through barriers as a CCW-er?

Also, what proof can you present that says hollowpoints are completely ineffective for barrier penetration?

Does the slight benefit of FMJ over JHP for barrier penetration (extremely unlikely scenario) negate the obvious benefits of JHP over FMJ for self-defense purposes (more likely scenario compared to punching through car doors)?

[jgcoastie]

emphasis added

So which is it? Is the 1-2 ounces a big deal or not?

If it is such a big deal, then why do you carry all this other crap?

emphasis added

And you have defeated all your "I need to save weight so I don't carry a second magazine" arguments with your comments from another thread:

emphasis added

You've presented about as many contradictions as Congress... Congratulations.

[rickyrick]

This thread won't die:barf:...but I can't stop checking it...

But I will forevermore use HP's for Self Defense and save the FMJs for the empty beer cans.

See 'yall in another thread...peace

[Warchild]

jgcoastie, it would appear that you are trying to instigate, any particular reason why? I mean, if you want to bash someone, PM is a much more professional and private manner in which to do it rather than trying to call out and humiliate openly. Just an observation....

[jgcoastie]

jgcoastie, it would appear that you are trying to instigate, any particular reason why? I mean, if you want to bash someone, PM is a much more professional and private manner in which to do it rather than trying to call out and humiliate openly. Just an observation....

Warchild, I was not intentionally instigating anthing. Merely asking a few questions after observing several inconsistencies in TL3's arguments in favor of mixing ammo in the same magazine, and his reasons for doing so.
I figured that bringing the relevant poritions of his reasoning together in the same post would shed some light on these inconsistencies in his logic.

I'll admit, the comment at the end may have been in poor taste, but I don't think anything I posted violates the TFL user agreement.

[woad_yurt]

If you were a batting coach on a baseball team, what would you tell a player who wants to use a different bat for each pitch?

Indeed, I would tell that player that a different bat is not needed, but a different SWING tailored for each pitch would be very advisable.. IMHO this analogy isn't quite up to par/(bat?) with the situation at hand.

Nope; you missed my point.

Plainly speaking, consistency is a priority when batting or shooting. Always root out all possible sources of inconsistency for better results. Once your groups are consistent, you'll be able to really zero in by moving it up or over a little. You can't do that with inconsistent groups. Using a different bat for each pitch and loading a magazine with a hodgepodge are surely two sources of inconsistency.

Note: I played ball for 6 years. One does batting practice to perfect one's swing. Once one develops a consistent, working swing, one merely needs to alter placement as needed. That's why everyone there had "his bat."

I load .38SPL and I do it the exact way every time. I don't juggle it around because my consistency will suffer.

Once, while tidying up, I found 2 stray, matching pairs of store-bought ammo laying around. I took them to the range and loaded up a cylinder with them and two of my regular handloads. My handloads went right where I thought they'd go but the other four looked like flyers.

How can one get consistent results when one loads a varied assortment of ammo in one's magazine?

[Skans]

To the OP: Trade in your Glock 19 for a Glock 26. Problem solvled.

[Jack Bauer]

Now, if I find myself in a situation where I have time to anticipate, perhaps even prepare for an engagement that I don't see fit to or cannot retreat from, and I see that hollow points may not be the best option... i.e. I see the beast before the attack and he's larger than expected, there is something in my line of fire like a pane of glass or a car door and I don't want my rounds "keyhole-ing" or whatever else I can or cannot think of that FMJ rounds are far better suited for, I simply eject my magazine, click out 4 rounds, insert and rack.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but it seems to me that if you have time to eject, thumb out four rounds and rack...you have time to get the he** out of there, whether or not you "see fit" to...when I carry, I carry in the hope that, no matter what, I can get away without having to use it...if I do have to, I want the most effective anti-personnel load in the gun that I can get...

[LordTio3]

woad_yurt:

How can one get consistent results when one loads a varied assortment of ammo in one's magazine?

1. I get consistent COM groups at 7-10 yards with this particular load out. I know how it feels and both types of rounds are good quality and shoot straight.

2. This is the second time you've stated this in a way that is misleading and derogatory. I don't think 2 qualifies as a "varied assortment". If I had a headache and stubbed my toe, I wouldn't say that I have a "varied assortment" of ailments. I think the words my mother used once upon a time were "Two Owies". Let's keep the embellishments to a minimum.

Note: I played ball for 6 years. One does batting practice to perfect one's swing. Once one develops a consistent, working swing, one merely needs to alter placement as needed. That's why everyone there had "his bat."

I load .38SPL and I do it the exact way every time. I don't juggle it around because my consistency will suffer.

So much for being a "well-rounded" individual being able to shoot multiple calibers and loads proficiently. You argument is that we should pick one caliber/load/grain/platform and work to perfect it our whole career as sheepdogs instead of training and becomming quite proficient with a number of tools?

And your affinity for baseball analogies because you used to play ball doesn't make them any more relevant to the question of useful handgun ammunition. This was MY point. I realize that practice makes better. And you choosing NOT to practice this way serves as the predominant reason that YOUR consistency would suffer because of it. This is why I practice with, and am proficient with my particular load-out, as well as many others. So this is once again, a moot point.

Skans:

To the OP: Trade in your Glock 19 for a Glock 26. Problem solvled.

This is ridiculous. I didn't say, "I want a smaller pistol than my Glock 19 in 9mm with a smaller grip frame, identical reliability/feel/angle, but I do not know of any such handgun."

There was a whole section on the benefits of increased capacity, sight radius, grip length, etc...

Unwarranted solution to an imagined problem.
Moot point.

Jack Bauer:
Welcome to the discussion. And I commend you for offering such a solid point.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but it seems to me that if you have time to eject, thumb out four rounds and rack...you have time to get the he** out of there, whether or not you "see fit" to...

I have received as much training in liability as anything else combat related. I know consequences, responsibility, tactical advantage vs duty to retreat, The Castle Doctrine, legal liability, emotional and social cost, and everything in between like scripture. I do not take anything having to do with self defense lightly in the least.

I wholistically appreciate your concern.
My philosophy, which I have shared is in the circumstance that if the fight is brought to me and I am at a tactical disadvantage which is overwhelmingly likely statistically, then my load-out would surely be better for me.
Imagine yourself walking your dog down the street. An SUV pulls up beside you and stops. Two "gentlement" get out and advance on you threateningly.
You stop and put your hand on your weapon. They see this and retreat like many would-be muggers do. But someone in the SUV draws a gun and begins to fire the weapon at you. (Not SO far fetched right?)
What do you do?
Retreating puts you at a tactical disadvantage. You don't turn your back on an identified threat. Tactically, if you have the ability, you should engage to disengage. Fight in order to flee. (i.e. Stop the threat and get out of Dodge before another one presents)

At this point, I am the first to admit that I do not DROP MY MAGAZINE AND MAKE THE CHANGEOVER. I draw and return fire at the person firing through a window while moving WHEREVER I CAN. But he is shooting from cover and I'm not. And is it safer to shoot at the window risking a clean miss to the other side of the street and what is beyond?
I shoot at the guy/cover point of optical occlusion. Chances are my first few rounds will go wide. Anyone thinking of target accuracy here is writing an action movie script. I fire through my first five rounds if I can hoping for an incap. shot. If not, then I rapidly fire at that point of optical occlusion knowing without a second thought that my rounds, if they go lower will penetrate the door and hit this guy and if they go higher... they will hit this guy. I've just made my effective target 4-5 times larger by using penetrative ammunition and can shoot COM instead of COT. This is only as far-fetched as any scenario, but once again, over 80% of self defense shootings involve vehicles in some tactical way. And if it is self defense from an offensive party, you do the math.

jgcoastie:

So which is it? Is the 1-2 ounces a big deal or not?

When I stated that the weight difference was nearly negligible, I was intending to speak in an objective 3rd party tone (hard to convey in script), in that it would be a nearly indiscernable difference in weight to most people with more common-use systems.
For my practical uses, yes I am advocating that it makes a difference. See my last post regarding my particular uses and the differences the weight makes in helping the weapon to not necessarily "feel" lighter, but to move a bit less in it's intended tactical location on my person.

That being said, I don't carry "All this other crap."

At any time I have at least one blade on me, several improvised ligatures, usually a baton within grasp, and my firearm with hollowpoints and FMJ available.

I always have ONE blade on me. Sometimes more. My usual EDC if I am engaging in rigorous activity is an assisted-opening titanium Boker folder with a 3 in blade. Very light-weight and it can be clipped just about anywhere accessible. Improvised ligatures, which I have trained exhaustingly with, are just that: Improvised. A jacket, a shirt, a belt, even a shoelace can be employed if you are trained with ligatures, which are traditional weapons in my martial art of focus. I also have batons in my car, home, and satchel if I am wearing it. One USUALLY within grasp.

I carry an extra magazine whenever I can.

This is my quote from another thread about how many magazines one usually carries. You criticised after adding some emphasis, however you added a bit too much. Allow me to help clear this up.

I carry an extra magazine whenever I can.

There. For MY practical reasons, sometimes I cannot practically carry another magazine. So what do I do? I carry two types of ammo in ONE magazine which is the entire central point of this thread. I am not always running. I am not always training. Sometimes, around winter, it is cold outside and I have an extra layer of clothing on which is more conducive to concealment. These are examples of "whenever I can" and DO carry an extra magazine of FMJ to compliment my full magazine of Hollow Points as I stated multiple times in this thread already. However, there is usually ALWAYS one in my vehicle glove compartment which is usually readily accessable if I am away from home. In my home is not an issue. That is where my weapons live.

As like most people. I do not leave the house in the same outfit everyday to engage in identical activities in identical locations. Sometimes when I leave the house, I go to work. Sometimes I got to the store; the post office; to training; running; walking the dog; my mother's house; 2 states over; etc...forever... Thus, whever I can I carry a second magazine. It is just not practical for the purposes I've mentioned, reiterated, and clarified; ad nauseam.


I hope this "sheds some light" on the "inconsistencies in logic" which really I find to be no more than inconsistencies in clarity for whatever reason. I appologize if the fault was my own.

~LT

[Double Naught Spy]

While I have to admit I know folks who won't carry a spare mag because it is too much weight, but I have never heard of anybody loading up their defensive magazines with mostly Blazer ammo to save on weight.

The smart carrier who wanted to save weight in a defensive gun through ammo selection might be better off going with lighter weight defensive rounds as opposed to trying to save weight between brass and aluminum cases, or simply loading 1 round less but using all defensive ammo. Even then, however, the weight savings is inconsequential.

I suppose there are people out there who do not wear hair gel, cufflinks, or shoes requiring long laces because they think the extra weight will slow them down, but I doubt such changes actually help.

I am off to go shave the hair off my arms so that my arms won't be so encumbered by the extra weight.

[LordTio3]

Double Naught Spy:
It is obvious by your post that you have neither taken the time to understand or even read the posts on this thread. As such, you comment is irrelevant and serves only to enunciate this fact.

~LT

[woad_yurt]

So much for being a "well-rounded" individual being able to shoot multiple calibers and loads proficiently. You argument is that we should pick one caliber/load/grain/platform and work to perfect it our whole career as sheepdogs instead of training and becomming quite proficient with a number of tools?

Nope, never said that. I never said anything close to that. You inferred all of it. You sound angry. Are you? I hope not because you're the one who asked for some opinions to begin with.

Aside from the .38SPLs, I shoot 9MM, 7.62X25, .32 shorts and longs, .22LR and WMR, .44 Magnum, .38 S&W, .380 and 9X18. and I'm proficient with all of 'em. I only mentioned the .38SPLs because they're the most accurate ones and something different (or slightly different) is more easily noticed.

What I did say is that ammo from different makers all have their own performance characteristics. Since they don't perform identically, then it's left to the shooter to adjust in mid-magazine, a completely unnecessary issue because I don't see any benefit to be gained by loading multiple types of ammo in one magazine.

If you've found two different rounds that shoot the same, more power to you. I read what you said but still don't agree that there's any good to be gained by using a varied (characterized by or exhibiting variety) assortment (a mixed collection) of ammo in one's magazine.

Woof,
A sheepdog

I am off to go shave the hair off my arms so that my arms won't be so encumbered by the extra weight.