Marlin .357 -problem with cast bullets

hodaka · January 3, 2010, 11:11 AM

I am becoming frustrated trying to group cast bullets out of my Marlin carbine. Using 158 gr. Dardas bullets with Unique ranging from 5.5 to 7.5 grains of powder. All over the paper with every load. Using a light crimp. The bullet weights are very consistent and they look very good.

Nosler jacketed 158 grain hollowpoints will group less than 2" at 50. Newer model 1894 CS with Ballard rifling.

Any suggestions?

fourdollarbill · January 3, 2010, 11:37 AM

I'd have to say the Unique is the blame if anything. In my 1894CS with a 158gr JHP I have the best accuracy with either 15grs of H110 (16.7 max) or 13.5 gr of 2400 (14.3 max).
Two inch groups is not terrible bad. Don't get "Camp Perry" on that carbine because it will make you crazy.

fourdollarbill · January 3, 2010, 11:42 AM

Well I just gave you JHP data and your question was for cast. Sorry.
Here is my best 1894CS cast data. And I think the Unique is still at fault for either bullet out of that carbine.
158gr LSWC 14.5 gr 2400 standard primer. (15.5 max)
158gr LSWC 16 gr H110 mag primer. (18.3 max)

hodaka · January 3, 2010, 11:52 AM

No, I'm pleased with the jacketed load. I just always thought that Unique was the best powder for cast loads. I have both 2400 and 296 (same as 110) so I can give both a try. Thanks.

jjohnson · January 3, 2010, 01:23 PM

Your Ballard type rifling should work well with cast... have you tried another cast bullet? Dardas has a fine reputation, but that would be a quick thing to check. Have you miked your bullets? Cast are often (but not always) cast 1 thousandth large.....

joneb · January 3, 2010, 01:24 PM

Do you know the hardness of these cast bullets (BHN) ?
What kind of 158gr bullet ?
Light crimp

Are you sure the OAL isn't changing ?

dardascastbullets · January 3, 2010, 02:54 PM

Hi Hodaka,

What is your bore diameter? That will determine the sized diameter that you should be using for your Marlin. Marlins are usually 'over bore' so I would recommend slugging the bore.

Stick_man · January 3, 2010, 04:49 PM

+1 on slugging the barrell. A .358" bullet will work in many .357Mag guns but not all. If your barrell slugs at .358 or even .359, you will want to go a little larger than that. As said, take your measured diameter and add .001 to it. That will give you good fit, good pressure sealing, and good accuracy.

If the bore size isn't your problem, try a different powder.

Good luck and happy shooting!

hickstick_10 · January 3, 2010, 05:13 PM

What bullet lube are you using?

I'd also give IMR 4227 a try

zxcvbob · January 3, 2010, 05:18 PM

What bullet profile is it? SWC may be catching on the edge of the chamber and getting buggered.

Try using about 8 grains of Herco or WSF if you have either of those powders, or 10 grains of AA#7.

hodaka · January 3, 2010, 05:47 PM

I took a little time while watching the Cowboys this afternoon and slugged the bore. I have never done this before but by using one of these bullets, some Lee sizing lube and an old stainless cleaning rod I managed to push a bullet down the barrel (with the help of a hammer). I don't have a proper tool for measuring the grooves and lands but according to my 6" dial caliper I get 0.355 and 0.346 for the grooves and lands. In any case, it is no wider than 0.355. These bullets show right at 0.357 from the box according to my Midway Chinese caliper so I don't think size is my problem.

These are 158 gr. SWC with a beveled base and I have no idea what the lube is other than a blue looking wax.

As I said, I have some 296 and 2400 so I will start with these. Thanks for all of your suggestions and I will post how this ends up.

Randy 1911 · January 3, 2010, 06:32 PM

You might try a different bullet. My wife shoots a Marlin 1894 CS with 158 gr. LRNFP from www.thebulletworks.net and they are very accurate (I use a roll crimp). I load them with 4.5 grs. of W231 in 357 brass. It shoots just as good with 38 brass and 3.7 grs. of W231 and the same bullet.

winchester243 · January 3, 2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

What bullet profile is it? SWC may be catching on the edge of the chamber and getting buggered.

That was my 1st thought as well.

winchester243 · January 3, 2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

I took a little time while watching the Cowboys this afternoon and slugged the bore. I have never done this before but by using one of these bullets, some Lee sizing lube and an old stainless cleaning rod I managed to push a bullet down the barrel (with the help of a hammer). I don't have a proper tool for measuring the grooves and lands but according to my 6" dial caliper I get 0.355 and 0.346 for the grooves and lands. In any case, it is no wider than 0.355. These bullets show right at 0.357 from the box according to my Midway Chinese caliper so I don't think size is my problem.

These are 158 gr. SWC with a beveled base and I have no idea what the lube is other than a blue looking wax.

As I said, I have some 296 and 2400 so I will start with these. Thanks for all of your suggestions and I will post how this ends up.

.355 seems a bit small, but I haven't slugged a lot of bores, so maybe that is correct. As a general rule of thumb I go one up on diameter with cast, so .358 in this case. If that doesn't improve accuracy to my liking I'll try slugging.

I'd also try a RNFP bullet as noted above the edge in the SWC may be getting buggered.

Mtn Biker · January 3, 2010, 07:17 PM

I use 358" Dardas RNFP 158gr in my 1894C with 6gr Unique. Its a tack driver! I do use a snug roll crimp in the crimp groove. I would try tightening up the crimp and hand feeding them one at a time to make sure the bullets are not getting shaved during feeding as suggested. I have used Dardas LSWC bullets in mine a few times but never put them on paper from a bench rest. The seemed to shoot ok. The RNFP bullet makes a great cowboy round that feeds great in a lever action so that is my go to bullet for mine.
VL

joneb · January 3, 2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Using a light crimp.

This could lead to bullet set back either from the tubular magazine or feeding issues with the SWC bullet profile.

Quote:

These are 158 gr. SWC

As mentioned a round nose flat point or truncated cone flat point are good choices in a lever action.

tag2501 · January 4, 2010, 09:51 PM

Unique might be a bit fast burning for a rifle?

for lead bullets (if not looking for high power loads), try Trail Boss.

for higher power loads, 4227, H110, maybe lil'gun.

dardascastbullets · January 4, 2010, 11:39 PM

Hi Hodaka,

Use a series of wood dowels the next time you slug any bore. The use of a metal rod is very dangerous to the bore. Gouging the bore's surface is easily accomplished while driving the slug through. You may want to take a look down the bore to make sure there aren't any 'marks'.

hodaka · January 5, 2010, 08:02 AM

Yes, that would have been a better plan. I made sure that the tip of a jag on the rod was stuck tight in the lead and there are no scratches in the bore. I have made up some 296 and 2400 loads but a headcold is keeping me in for the next few days.

January 3, 2010, 11:11 AM	#1
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Marlin .357 -problem with cast bullets I am becoming frustrated trying to group cast bullets out of my Marlin carbine. Using 158 gr. Dardas bullets with Unique ranging from 5.5 to 7.5 grains of powder. All over the paper with every load. Using a light crimp. The bullet weights are very consistent and they look very good. Nosler jacketed 158 grain hollowpoints will group less than 2" at 50. Newer model 1894 CS with Ballard rifling. Any suggestions?

January 3, 2010, 01:23 PM	#5
jjohnson Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Posts: 72	Micro-groove? Your Ballard type rifling should work well with cast... have you tried another cast bullet? Dardas has a fine reputation, but that would be a quick thing to check. Have you miked your bullets? Cast are often (but not always) cast 1 thousandth large.....

January 3, 2010, 01:24 PM	#6
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	Do you know the hardness of these cast bullets (BHN) ? What kind of 158gr bullet ? Light crimp Are you sure the OAL isn't changing ? Last edited by joneb; January 3, 2010 at 02:00 PM.

January 3, 2010, 05:18 PM	#10
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	What bullet profile is it? SWC may be catching on the edge of the chamber and getting buggered. Try using about 8 grains of Herco or WSF if you have either of those powders, or 10 grains of AA#7. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

January 3, 2010, 06:32 PM	#12
Randy 1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: Western Arkansas Posts: 273	You might try a different bullet. My wife shoots a Marlin 1894 CS with 158 gr. LRNFP from www.thebulletworks.net and they are very accurate (I use a roll crimp). I load them with 4.5 grs. of W231 in 357 brass. It shoots just as good with 38 brass and 3.7 grs. of W231 and the same bullet. __________________ Been Reloading 27 Years NRA Member Member Old Fort Gun Club www.ofgc.org

January 3, 2010, 11:37 AM	#2
fourdollarbill Member Join Date: April 4, 2008 Posts: 17	I'd have to say the Unique is the blame if anything. In my 1894CS with a 158gr JHP I have the best accuracy with either 15grs of H110 (16.7 max) or 13.5 gr of 2400 (14.3 max). Two inch groups is not terrible bad. Don't get "Camp Perry" on that carbine because it will make you crazy.

January 3, 2010, 11:42 AM	#3
fourdollarbill Member Join Date: April 4, 2008 Posts: 17	Well I just gave you JHP data and your question was for cast. Sorry. Here is my best 1894CS cast data. And I think the Unique is still at fault for either bullet out of that carbine. 158gr LSWC 14.5 gr 2400 standard primer. (15.5 max) 158gr LSWC 16 gr H110 mag primer. (18.3 max)

January 3, 2010, 11:52 AM	#4
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	No, I'm pleased with the jacketed load. I just always thought that Unique was the best powder for cast loads. I have both 2400 and 296 (same as 110) so I can give both a try. Thanks.

January 3, 2010, 02:54 PM	#7
dardascastbullets Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Essexville, MI Posts: 164	What is Your Bore Diameter? Hi Hodaka, What is your bore diameter? That will determine the sized diameter that you should be using for your Marlin. Marlins are usually 'over bore' so I would recommend slugging the bore. __________________ Matt Dardas

January 3, 2010, 04:49 PM	#8
Stick_man Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 241	+1 on slugging the barrell. A .358" bullet will work in many .357Mag guns but not all. If your barrell slugs at .358 or even .359, you will want to go a little larger than that. As said, take your measured diameter and add .001 to it. That will give you good fit, good pressure sealing, and good accuracy. If the bore size isn't your problem, try a different powder. Good luck and happy shooting!

January 3, 2010, 05:13 PM	#9
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	What bullet lube are you using? I'd also give IMR 4227 a try

January 3, 2010, 05:47 PM	#11
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	I took a little time while watching the Cowboys this afternoon and slugged the bore. I have never done this before but by using one of these bullets, some Lee sizing lube and an old stainless cleaning rod I managed to push a bullet down the barrel (with the help of a hammer). I don't have a proper tool for measuring the grooves and lands but according to my 6" dial caliper I get 0.355 and 0.346 for the grooves and lands. In any case, it is no wider than 0.355. These bullets show right at 0.357 from the box according to my Midway Chinese caliper so I don't think size is my problem. These are 158 gr. SWC with a beveled base and I have no idea what the lube is other than a blue looking wax. As I said, I have some 296 and 2400 so I will start with these. Thanks for all of your suggestions and I will post how this ends up.

January 3, 2010, 07:17 PM	#15
Mtn Biker Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 122	I use 358" Dardas RNFP 158gr in my 1894C with 6gr Unique. Its a tack driver! I do use a snug roll crimp in the crimp groove. I would try tightening up the crimp and hand feeding them one at a time to make sure the bullets are not getting shaved during feeding as suggested. I have used Dardas LSWC bullets in mine a few times but never put them on paper from a bench rest. The seemed to shoot ok. The RNFP bullet makes a great cowboy round that feeds great in a lever action so that is my go to bullet for mine. VL

January 4, 2010, 09:51 PM	#17
tag2501 Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 18	Unique might be a bit fast burning for a rifle? for lead bullets (if not looking for high power loads), try Trail Boss. for higher power loads, 4227, H110, maybe lil'gun.

January 4, 2010, 11:39 PM	#18
dardascastbullets Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Essexville, MI Posts: 164	Use A Series of Wood Dowels the Next Time! Hi Hodaka, Use a series of wood dowels the next time you slug any bore. The use of a metal rod is very dangerous to the bore. Gouging the bore's surface is easily accomplished while driving the slug through. You may want to take a look down the bore to make sure there aren't any 'marks'. __________________ Matt Dardas

January 5, 2010, 08:02 AM	#19
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Yes, that would have been a better plan. I made sure that the tip of a jag on the rod was stuck tight in the lead and there are no scratches in the bore. I have made up some 296 and 2400 loads but a headcold is keeping me in for the next few days. Last edited by hodaka; January 5, 2010 at 08:07 AM.