Explination difference in dies? - Page 2

Jerry45 · February 13, 2011, 02:49 AM

I’m don't have a Rock Chucker I’m using a RCBS Jr. We’ll see what happens when I get the dies. I’m pretty mechanical so I’m not too worried. Then again it may be a good excuse to buy a Rock Chucker.

steve4102 · February 13, 2011, 10:24 AM

As in the die instructions, do not set up the Collet die to "cam over" you will damage the die. It only takes a small amount of pressure on the handle, I believe Lee says 25lbs of force. That isn't much.

When you get your dies, take them apart, clean them up good and make sure you get all the metal shavings etc out from between the collet fingers. Apply a light coat of good lube and reassemble.

It is a well known issue with the Collet die not producing enough neck tension. I believe Lee sets them up for .001 neck tension. The case neck is squeezed around a mandrel, applying enormous amounts of pressure will not make the neck any smaller only reducing the mandrel diameter will increase neck tension.

This is done two ways, chuck the mandrel in a drill and polish it down to your desired size with some fine emery cloth or call Lee and purchase a "Reduced" mandrel for $5.

.

Jerry45 · February 13, 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

It is a well known issue with the Collet die not producing enough neck tension. I believe Lee sets them up for .001 neck tension. The case neck is squeezed around a mandrel, applying enormous amounts of pressure will not make the neck any smaller only reducing the mandrel diameter will increase neck tension.

And now I understand, without even looking at the die, why people are “blowing up” their dies.

steve4102 · February 13, 2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

And now I understand, without even looking at the die, why people are “blowing up” their dies.

You Got It!

flyboyjake · February 13, 2011, 05:37 PM

If you take your die apart, you will see why there will be a direct relationship between how hard you press and how small the neck becomes. While I agree that you can only size the neck as small as the mandrel, this does not imply that the mandrel size is what is causing the poor neck tension on cases. Why would it have solved my problem by allowing it to cam over? (Note: there is a significant difference between what I would consider a light cam and a heavy cam).

Lee does not say it takes 25lbs...it says it takes a "minimum" of 25 lbs. It also says nothing about avoiding a cammed over condition. At least not in my instructions...

Here is a quote from the instructions.

"Loose bullets are always due to improperly adjusted or the operator does not push hard enough on the press lever. The neck is sized at the end of the stroke. It requires considerable force on the press lever"

So, you can either sit on your lever, or let it cam...either way, mine has to be pressed very hard...

Jerry45 · February 13, 2011, 05:47 PM

Seems to me, and I could very well be wrong, from what I’ve read that no-matter how hard you “squeeze” the neck won’t get any smaller once making full contact with the mandrel. However, I wouldn’t be suppressed if it gets thinner and longer.

steve4102 · February 13, 2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

It also says nothing about avoiding a cammed over condition.

From Lee's web page.

Collet Die adjustment

If you are using the Collet die in an RCBS Rockchucker press, or a similar design that toggles over center at the top of the (ram) stroke, this applies far greater force than is necessary to resize just the neck of the case, and can damage the die or collapse the case. To correct this situation, adjust the die two full turns into the press after the die contacts the shell holder with the ram at the top of its stroke, rather than one as in the instructions. This will stop the press before it gets to the toggle over point. With a press without having an over center feature, apply about 25 lbs. of pressure to the handle once it bottoms out to resize the case. On most presses, this translates to over 600 lbs of pressure on the ram.

Collet die pressure exertion

All of the sizing in the Collet die takes place at the very end of the stroke, when the ram/shell holder appears to bottom out against the base of the die. If you lean into the handle at this point, you will force the collet up into the die body, and cause the collet to squeeze the case neck down against the mandrel (the very end of which pops out the spent primer). About 25 lbs. of force is sufficient to resize most cases. If you are sitting in front of your press, just leaning your upper body weight into the lever is about right.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

flyboyjake · February 13, 2011, 07:59 PM

It seems there is an inconsistency in Lee's instructions. I suppose at this point all I can say is that from my experience with a 7mm rem mag die, "leaning" on the press arm produces cases with little to no neck tension, while toggling it over center produces just what I need. Perhaps there are minute differences in each die that would require more or less force to be applied to achieve the same result...I honestly dont know...but to those of you who are having an issue with a lack of neck tension, I would submit that before abandoning the idea of the lee neck sizer, you should attempt to exert more force...though I think we have completely hijacked this thread now...lol

Jerry45 · February 13, 2011, 09:30 PM

It’s my thread. Hijack away and I’ll play too.

I would “think” a .223 case, being a much smaller neck, would take less force to size than a 300 WM. But then again I could be completely wrong. What I do know is it takes less pressure to FLS a .223 than it does a 30/06.

flyboyjake · February 14, 2011, 06:29 AM

heh, fine by me

That would stand to reason about .223 being easier. I dont know how similar the RCBS version is...I dont think the Lee dies have been around for fore than 10 years or so, and I suspect they still have copyright patent protection...so im sure they are a very different process. I usually only buy the lee stuff for their price, considering its still some ingenious stuff...but RCBS is a top notch company that will always have my support.

Jerry45 · February 14, 2011, 01:17 PM

RCBS seems to put a better finish on their dies. I have been buying RCCBS since the early 70’s. I was competing with a .45 ACP and didn’t like the way my cast bullets were being aligned and crimped using the RCBS bullet seating/crimp die. I bought a Lee FCD and loved what it did for my reloads. I immediately ordered another for 9.mm. I recently purchased a 45/70. I bought a set of lee dies for it and also got a Lee FCD. I set the dies up in a Dillon 550. The dies work fine and the FCD works perfectly. I still like the finish and locking rings on the RCBS better but Lee gets the job done and does it well.

I have no problems with my post wandering a bit. Conversations always take twist and turns and I look at posts more like a conversation than a strict on topic debate. Unless I’m arguing politics. LOL!

Jerry45 · February 22, 2011, 12:50 AM

Lee neck sizing dies arrived today. I pulled the 30/06 apart and must say the mandrel looks pretty smooth. I’ll be trying it within the next few days.

Brian Pfleuger · February 22, 2011, 12:47 PM

I'd still recommend polishing them.... mine were "pretty smooth" too but polishing them up DRASTICALLY effects the effort. I did most of my polishing with a Scotch-Brite pad and finished up with Flitz polish.

You are also correct that small necks take less effort than large.... when I size .204 cases I can barely tell there's anything in the die. It feels almost the same as when it's empty. 7-08 takes far more effort. The cases are all the same brand, same age and same average number of loadings, so I'm reasonably confident the difference is entirely neck diameter based.

Jerry45 · February 22, 2011, 02:26 PM

Just tried out the 30/06 die. Adjusted exactly as per Lee instructions. When seating the bullet it felt a “little” tighter than when sized using the RCBS FLD. I tried shoving the bullet in the case by hand and there was no way. After seated using the RCBS seating die with no crimp. I then used my impact bullet puller to remove the bullet. It took three good whacks on an Oak bench. First hit nothing. Second hit bulled came oout about half way. Third whack bullet came out. I'd say that's a GOOD TIGHT set. I “LIKE” this die.

Thanks to all those that recommended it. Thanks to Sport45 for suggesting doubling up on the locking nuts. Works great! Thanks to peetzakilla for suggesting rotating the case 180°. Works like a champ and as you said, it doesn’t take all that much pressure. I’m using a RCBS Jr. press and I just leaned into the handle.

Clark · February 22, 2011, 03:33 PM

I had a Lee .223 collet neck die, a Redding FL "S" bushing die, and lots of other .223 dies for years.

I used to Redding because it cost more and looked nicer.

As the years went by I made thousands of internet handloading forum posts making fun of other posters with unsubstantiated opinions.

Then I did some controlled testing of groups of brass for runout [concentricity] and brass growth at 66kpsi and and found out that the Redding was the worst and the Lee collet was the best.

It is amazing how content my head was, not knowing I was wrong.

wncchester · February 22, 2011, 06:34 PM

"...amazing how content my head was, not knowing I was wrong."

Clark, BTDT; gives meaning to the old saying, "Ignorance is bliss", don't it?

LOTS of uninformed "expert" iggernace gets posted on the web, perhaps especially so about Lee's tools on the one hand or the value of shiney finishes and neet knurling on the other!

February 13, 2011, 02:49 AM	#26
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	I’m don't have a Rock Chucker I’m using a RCBS Jr. We’ll see what happens when I get the dies. I’m pretty mechanical so I’m not too worried. Then again it may be a good excuse to buy a Rock Chucker. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; February 13, 2011 at 01:13 PM.

February 13, 2011, 05:47 PM	#31
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Seems to me, and I could very well be wrong, from what I’ve read that no-matter how hard you “squeeze” the neck won’t get any smaller once making full contact with the mandrel. However, I wouldn’t be suppressed if it gets thinner and longer. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 13, 2011, 09:30 PM	#34
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	It’s my thread. Hijack away and I’ll play too. I would “think” a .223 case, being a much smaller neck, would take less force to size than a 300 WM. But then again I could be completely wrong. What I do know is it takes less pressure to FLS a .223 than it does a 30/06. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 14, 2011, 01:17 PM	#36
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	RCBS seems to put a better finish on their dies. I have been buying RCCBS since the early 70’s. I was competing with a .45 ACP and didn’t like the way my cast bullets were being aligned and crimped using the RCBS bullet seating/crimp die. I bought a Lee FCD and loved what it did for my reloads. I immediately ordered another for 9.mm. I recently purchased a 45/70. I bought a set of lee dies for it and also got a Lee FCD. I set the dies up in a Dillon 550. The dies work fine and the FCD works perfectly. I still like the finish and locking rings on the RCBS better but Lee gets the job done and does it well. I have no problems with my post wandering a bit. Conversations always take twist and turns and I look at posts more like a conversation than a strict on topic debate. Unless I’m arguing politics. LOL! __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; February 14, 2011 at 01:22 PM.

February 22, 2011, 12:50 AM	#37
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Lee neck sizing dies arrived today. I pulled the 30/06 apart and must say the mandrel looks pretty smooth. I’ll be trying it within the next few days. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

February 13, 2011, 10:24 AM	#27
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	As in the die instructions, do not set up the Collet die to "cam over" you will damage the die. It only takes a small amount of pressure on the handle, I believe Lee says 25lbs of force. That isn't much. When you get your dies, take them apart, clean them up good and make sure you get all the metal shavings etc out from between the collet fingers. Apply a light coat of good lube and reassemble. It is a well known issue with the Collet die not producing enough neck tension. I believe Lee sets them up for .001 neck tension. The case neck is squeezed around a mandrel, applying enormous amounts of pressure will not make the neck any smaller only reducing the mandrel diameter will increase neck tension. This is done two ways, chuck the mandrel in a drill and polish it down to your desired size with some fine emery cloth or call Lee and purchase a "Reduced" mandrel for $5. .

February 13, 2011, 05:37 PM	#30
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	If you take your die apart, you will see why there will be a direct relationship between how hard you press and how small the neck becomes. While I agree that you can only size the neck as small as the mandrel, this does not imply that the mandrel size is what is causing the poor neck tension on cases. Why would it have solved my problem by allowing it to cam over? (Note: there is a significant difference between what I would consider a light cam and a heavy cam). Lee does not say it takes 25lbs...it says it takes a "minimum" of 25 lbs. It also says nothing about avoiding a cammed over condition. At least not in my instructions... Here is a quote from the instructions. "Loose bullets are always due to improperly adjusted or the operator does not push hard enough on the press lever. The neck is sized at the end of the stroke. It requires considerable force on the press lever" So, you can either sit on your lever, or let it cam...either way, mine has to be pressed very hard...

February 13, 2011, 07:59 PM	#33
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	It seems there is an inconsistency in Lee's instructions. I suppose at this point all I can say is that from my experience with a 7mm rem mag die, "leaning" on the press arm produces cases with little to no neck tension, while toggling it over center produces just what I need. Perhaps there are minute differences in each die that would require more or less force to be applied to achieve the same result...I honestly dont know...but to those of you who are having an issue with a lack of neck tension, I would submit that before abandoning the idea of the lee neck sizer, you should attempt to exert more force...though I think we have completely hijacked this thread now...lol

February 14, 2011, 06:29 AM	#35
flyboyjake Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 135	heh, fine by me That would stand to reason about .223 being easier. I dont know how similar the RCBS version is...I dont think the Lee dies have been around for fore than 10 years or so, and I suspect they still have copyright patent protection...so im sure they are a very different process. I usually only buy the lee stuff for their price, considering its still some ingenious stuff...but RCBS is a top notch company that will always have my support.

February 22, 2011, 12:47 PM	#38
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I'd still recommend polishing them.... mine were "pretty smooth" too but polishing them up DRASTICALLY effects the effort. I did most of my polishing with a Scotch-Brite pad and finished up with Flitz polish. You are also correct that small necks take less effort than large.... when I size .204 cases I can barely tell there's anything in the die. It feels almost the same as when it's empty. 7-08 takes far more effort. The cases are all the same brand, same age and same average number of loadings, so I'm reasonably confident the difference is entirely neck diameter based. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 22, 2011, 02:26 PM	#39
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Just tried out the 30/06 die. Adjusted exactly as per Lee instructions. When seating the bullet it felt a “little” tighter than when sized using the RCBS FLD. I tried shoving the bullet in the case by hand and there was no way. After seated using the RCBS seating die with no crimp. I then used my impact bullet puller to remove the bullet. It took three good whacks on an Oak bench. First hit nothing. Second hit bulled came oout about half way. Third whack bullet came out. I'd say that's a GOOD TIGHT set. I “LIKE” this die. Thanks to all those that recommended it. Thanks to Sport45 for suggesting doubling up on the locking nuts. Works great! Thanks to peetzakilla for suggesting rotating the case 180°. Works like a champ and as you said, it doesn’t take all that much pressure. I’m using a RCBS Jr. press and I just leaned into the handle. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; February 23, 2011 at 12:41 AM.

February 22, 2011, 03:33 PM	#40
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I had a Lee .223 collet neck die, a Redding FL "S" bushing die, and lots of other .223 dies for years. I used to Redding because it cost more and looked nicer. As the years went by I made thousands of internet handloading forum posts making fun of other posters with unsubstantiated opinions. Then I did some controlled testing of groups of brass for runout [concentricity] and brass growth at 66kpsi and and found out that the Redding was the worst and the Lee collet was the best. It is amazing how content my head was, not knowing I was wrong.

February 22, 2011, 06:34 PM	#41
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"...amazing how content my head was, not knowing I was wrong." Clark, BTDT; gives meaning to the old saying, "Ignorance is bliss", don't it? LOTS of uninformed "expert" iggernace gets posted on the web, perhaps especially so about Lee's tools on the one hand or the value of shiney finishes and neet knurling on the other!