Problem, new gun

[kmw1954]

Recently started loading 45acp for an XD and things went well. Now I've just picked up a second 45acp so of course I quickly went and did a plunk test on the barrel. Not Good! only 1/2 of the rounds I tried in it will seat with the plunk test. Some are not even coming close. Most will seat with a very slight pressure and I can extract them with a finger nail a few take greater pressure and something stronger than my fingernail to get out.

I did take a marker and colored in the case all the way around but it does not show a heavy mark from were it is sticking. There does appear to be a light mark about 1/3 way around about midway between the rim and where the bottom of the bullet is in the case.

Thoughts or suggestions?

The bullets used are XTREME RN and Berry's Flat Point. The XTREME seem to be the worst of the 2. Factory rounds fall right in and right out.

[Sevens]

Without having the barrel and handloads in front of me, I'll just give it my best guess...

Reduce the COAL and you'll probably begin to pass the plunk test. Obviously, don't make a RADICAL change... and with a low/medium pressure cartridge like .45 ACP, we shouldn't be too worried about skyrocketing pressure. This assumes, of course, that you aren't running ragged-edge redline loads to begin with.

[Jim Watson]

What's the other gun? Got one of those "match grade" barrels with undersized chamber?

[Venti30]

I had this experience with my 9 mm stable of guns. When I initially switched to 124 grain, every gun I’ve got ran it fine at the “load data COAL” suggested by the data source EXCEPT my XDE. I had to shorten the COAL and backed down my powder charge to accommodate.

I’ve discovered that the barrel test is the best case gage. Re-tested the shorter bullets for proper magazine feeding in the other guns, and everything worked out in the end.

[kmw1954]

Thanks guys. It doesn't appear to be a length problem as the rounds are short anyways to fit the other gun. Besides these are sticking well before the case is even anywhere near the seat. Some are out 1/4" or better. A blank sized case drops right in and out.

The 1st gun is a Springfield XD Mod2 this 2nd gun is an older Tanfoglio Witness 45acp full size all metal frame and as far as I know it has the original barrel.

Just went thru 70 rounds, 25 were loaded with once fired XTREME cases and every one of those passed, 30 R-P of which 5 would only chamber about 1/2 way before they would hang up then about 1/2 of the rest would hang up just off the seat and with a very light tap they would seat, the rest, in and out just like they should. The other 20 were mixed headstamps and they were about 50/50, either they plunked or they hung up about 1/2 way.

When I measure them with my veneer they are right on and should fit. I find it hard to believe this old chamber is this tight.

[snakeye]

Color the bullet black and try it...its more likely the ogive of the bullet and its hitting the lands of the barrel in which case you will have to shorten the OAL

[Mike38]

If it's not a problem with over all length, the cure is Lee Factory Crimp Die. You don't have to crimp with a LFC Die, but you can (and probably should in this case) iron out the cases. One of your chambers is tighter than the other. Iron out the OD of the completed cartridge, and it just may solve your problem. I have a M1911 that has a Kart barrel and the chamber is shorter and tighter then most. I absolutely must use the LFC Die to iron out the cases to make them work.

[kmw1954]

They are all the same COAL. If it was a length issue none of them would seat.

Mike38 I have never used a FCD yet but at this point I'd be willing to try it. How well do they work with plated bullets? Do you know?

[ammo.crafter]

What is the actual measured diameter of your bullets?
What is the actual measured diameter of your barrel?

When seating do you notice any case bulge?
Is your brass from the same manufacturer?
What press are you using?
What bullet weight?

[higgite]

They are all the same COAL. If it was a length issue none of them would seat.

You measured them? They're all exactly the same COAL? If so, ignore the rest of this post.

It sounds to me like your target COAL is right on the verge of being too long for the Tanfoglio chamber, some fit, some don't. My suggestion would be to shoot the rounds that you have now in the Springfield. For future loads, do a plunk test on the Tanfoglio with a dummy round, seating the bullet deeper by a couple thousandths after each unsuccessful plunk until the round plunks and falls out of the chamber under gravity. That is max COL for that particular bullet in that pistol. If it isn't drastically different from your previous loads that work in the XD, I'd work up a new load with the new COL to shoot in both pistols. That's what I do for 9mm and .45 Auto. ymmv

[jetinteriorguy]

Try the Lee FCD, they work fine with plated bullets. I had the same problems with my 9mm loads and the FCD worked fine.

[Minorcan]

I rarely have issues with 45 acp now. I used to though. I started using a Lee FCD and it was amazing that the small issues I used to have went away. The FCD sizes the whole case everytime. I use them on all my pistol cartridge loading. It may not solve your problem but would eliminate a possible issue.

[uncle.45]

The FCD might help, but I went a different route after having similar trouble.
Try the Lee Bulge Buster, but only use it BEFORE you run cases thru your press.
Post-sizing can cause neck tension issues, but pre-sizing cases with a push-through sizing die may cure what ails you.
It will straighten out any bulges, and make the cases concentric (round) again, giving you a better start at consistent finished ammo. The cases go thru the press nicely, too, since you have already sized them.

[Jim Watson]

I think, based on brass brand correlation, that it is an undersize chamber.
You get them as "match grade" and you get them because a penny pinching manufacturer sharpens the chamber reamer too many times.

You can treat the problem with the Carbide Factory Crimp, you could cure it with a visit to a gunsmith with sharp fresh reamer.

But you can check OAL so easily, there is no reason not to take a non-plunker round and seat the bullet gradually deeper until it either chambers or you get ridiculously short.

[kmw1954]

So here is the thing. All of these were loaded in the same session with the same components on the same press using the same settings.

I have not measured the diameter of the bullets as of yet but because these were made as test rounds every one was measured for length and every one is the same length +- .002" due to bullet ogive and these are already loaded short. So if one was to long and hitting they all would hit. With some of these the case is half-way still sticking out of the barrel. Bullet length also would not cause this as they would have to be 1/4" to 3/8" longer than they are supposed to be and that is not the case..

As I already stated a sized case with no bullet will plunk right into the barrel just as the factory Winchester round does. So it has to be happening once the bullet is placed into the case.

I ran into something like this with our 9mm and found the second barrel had a tighter chamber than the first and by tightening down the crimp die just 1/4 turn solved that problem. I tried that here also to no avail. Absolutely no change by doing that.

Tomorrow I will contact Titan Reloading about a FCD.

[603Country]

Yep, get the factory crimp Die. I load for 9mm, 38, and 357. Oddly enough, I rarely need the FCD for 9mm or 38, but I do with 357. I’d load up a couple hundred 357 and drop them into the revolver cylinder to make sure they fit easily, and there were always a number of them that wouldn’t. Nowadays I run them through the FCD and they chamber perfectly. Someone could say that if my reloading process was perfect, I wouldn’t need the FCD. Well, maybe so, but I have been loading for 40 years, so i’m not a newby. Rather than do a complete rethink of my load process, I just run em through the FCD and all is good.

Mostly I shoot hard cast bullets in the 357, and I think that the problem that a few rounds being a bit resistant to chambering is actually the bullet itself. I can feel the FCD encountering resistance as it passes over the bullet and makes a small reduction in cast bullet diameter. I don’t have the problem with 125 gr JHP bullets.

[F. Guffey]

I have 5 P90 barrels with three complete slides and I have a 1911. One of the P90 complete slides and the 1911 love factory, over the counter new ammo; it does not like my reloads. I reloader in Garland informed me I did not know how to load for the 45ACP.

For me it was like looking at something very hot, it does not take me long to look at it. I decided my 45ACP did not like bullets with bullet lines. SO? I used my carbon sizing die to remove the bullet line. I sized the case after seating the bullets down to the point the case looked like factory, over the counter new ammo. I went to the range with all of my 45 ACPs, everything flew through them.

The disciplined reloader met me at the range with his 45ACP reloads; I was lucky to get three rounds to chamber before jamming. I took his ammo home, sized it and returned, not a problem. He offered free ammo to ever shooter with a 45ACP, his ammo flew through there pistols; my 1911 likes bullets without bullet lines and reloades that match the dimensions of factory, over the counter new ammo.

F. Guffey

[mikld]

Whenever there is a fit problem, measure. Measure the cartridge's OD in a few places from the mouth to the case head. Measure the OAL to make sure these are still in spec. Measure the case/cartridge after each step to find out when the case/cartridge becomes too large. A Lee FCD is just a cover up tool, will not fix a problem...

It's obvious the new gun has a smaller/tighter chamber, so find the problem, fix it and you'll be able to use your handloads in both guns.

[Nathan]

IME, the FCD is not usually required. Can you first pinpoint exactly where it is dragging with marksalot? I thought I read in the bullet area where it is in the case....at the rim, base of the bullet, in between?

My initial thought is that you have not ironed out all the flare with your crimp setting.

My second thought is you may be seating crooked....not sure. Often due to not enough flare or belling.

[T. O'Heir]

.45 ACP for an XD is the same as .45 ACP for anything else. In most cases, not fitting in the chamber is caused by too much OAL or incorrect taper crimp.
And make absolutely sure you're sizing 'em correctly.

[kmw1954]

So here is where I am at this morning.

I have considered that the bullet is not sitting square in the case and may be canted. Though coloring the case black and dropping it in doesn't reveal a high spot and to be clear the bullet is not hitting the lands.

Again this morning I have taken a freshly resized case and dropped it into the barrel and all fits well. I then took a flared case and dropped it in. it would only drop about half way, which is what I expected.

I have measured 3 bullets and all are .451" to .452". The Speer reloading book says the case should be .472" and at the case mouth I am getting .472" on 10 that I have measured and .468" just below the bullet.

So I brought out the XD and ran the tests on it. The sized case dropped right in, the flared case dropped almost completely in and every one of the loaded bullets Plunked just like a factory round.

[kmw1954]

Latest report.

This afternoon I tried a number of things just to satisfy myself. I then pulled the seating die from the press and took it apart. It actually still looked very clean but I cleaned it again anyways with a spray metal parts cleaner. It's like Gunk but it's not. After that I ran empty cases into the die body and then also with a loosely fitted bullet w/o the seating stem and then with the stem but w/o the adjusting nut.

After all that I put it all back into the press and even changed the shell holder. Then took the 11 cases that didn't pass the plunk test and ran one back thru the die to which there was improvement. Turned the die down 1/4 turn and tried again with still more improvement so I turned it down another 1/8 turn. Now 9 of the 11 will drop and fully seat. The other two would drop with a very light tap. Problem remains that 1/2 will still not drop out when turned over.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Recently started loading 45acp for an XD and things went well. Now I've just picked up a second 45acp so of course I quickly went and did a plunk test on the barrel. Not Good! only 1/2 of the rounds I tried in it will seat with the plunk test. Some are not even coming close. Most will seat with a very slight pressure and I can extract them with a finger nail a few take greater pressure and something stronger than my fingernail to get out.

I did take a marker and colored in the case all the way around but it does not show a heavy mark from were it is sticking. There does appear to be a light mark about 1/3 way around about midway between the rim and where the bottom of the bullet is in the case.

Thoughts or suggestions?

The bullets used are XTREME RN and Berry's Flat Point. The XTREME seem to be the worst of the 2. Factory rounds fall right in and right out.

For my various XD-s, I need to run hand loaded rounds thorugh a Lee Factory Crimp Die, for them to feed reliably.

[Unclenick]

Curious difficulty for .45 Auto loading. Have you inspected the Witness chamber for fouling accumulation? The 0.472" number is a case mouth maximum over a loaded bullet. 0.467" is the minimum, so 0.4695" is the average and should be your target value. This information is in the drawings on SAAMI's web site. The value given in the drawing is the more critical limit of the tolerance range and the tolerance is given as -0.006", which is where the 0.467" lower number comes from. What makes the upper number more critical is if it is too big, you can't fit the round in some chambers at all, while a too small number, even though it can cause problems, will at least still fit inside and will usually fire by headspacing on the extractor hook.

[Mike38]

Mike38 I have never used a FCD yet but at this point I'd be willing to try it. How well do they work with plated bullets? Do you know?

I've never reloaded plated bullets in .45acp, lead only. But I would think the FCD would help you.