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Old July 12, 2004, 04:57 PM   #1
FirstFreedom
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Is USPCA a joke?

When are you going to be wearing that belt with speed holster and 4 mag speed pouches during your daily life routine? If you're not, then why are you using it - i.e. why are you shooting USPCA instead of IDPA? The entire point is to simulate real, potential defensive encounters. I know it will ruffle some feathers, doubtless, but I think IPSC is a joke. If I want to play a game, I'll stay home and play Unreal Tournament or Everquest. If I want to train to help save my life in the future (potentially), AND have fun doing it, I'll shoot IDPA, thank you very much. Nomex: ON!
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Old July 12, 2004, 05:07 PM   #2
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I guess then if it is a joke the best USPSA(not USPCA) shooters wouldnt be good at IDPA. Oh wait! The best USPSA shooters train military, police, special forces and WIN MOST if not ALL IDPA championships and are better pistol handers than ANYONE on earth. If IDPA isnt a game then why do they use a timer? I hope you are just trying to be funny and not serious. If you are serious then feel free to get into a gunfight with an USPSA Grandmaster. Those guys can shoot any and I mean ANY gun well. Shooting is shooting.
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Old July 12, 2004, 05:15 PM   #3
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there's a WHOLE lot of peopel out there who coudn't give a crap what YOU think the point of something is supposed to be.

You might notice there is a trend there if you care to mull that one over.
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Old July 12, 2004, 05:42 PM   #4
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And what self defense techniques do Unreal Tournament and Everquest develop?

I have shot both IPSC and IDPA for some years. A good shot is a good shot. So what if a service pistol slows an IPSC Master to half speed? He is still twice as fast and much more accurate than any crook. And most cops.

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Old July 12, 2004, 05:58 PM   #5
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If IDPA is not a game why do we keep score. Page one of the IDPA rule book states that IDPA is a sport (Game?).
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Old July 12, 2004, 08:47 PM   #6
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I was told at an IDPA match that I couldn't have a tungsten guide rod in my G17. Why? Because it wouldn't be in my carry gun. Oh no? I assured the RO that my carry gun has one, and I rely on it. But I couldn't use it in IDPA. Where's the joke, huh?
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Old July 13, 2004, 04:28 AM   #7
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It's a GAME it doesnt have to be some kind of "real life simulation".

Basketball hasnt taught me crap about staying alive, but it's still fun.
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Old July 13, 2004, 11:48 AM   #8
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No, IDPA is a game, to be sure. But it's not a pure game. The game is secondary - learning to shoot AFTER DRAWING REALISTICALLY FROM A TRUE CARRY HOLSTER in a realistic scenario is the primary point - that is NOT the primary point of USPCA - the primary point of it is to play a game, whereas any skills you might pick up are secondary. Yes, you will undoubtedly gain pure shooting skills from shooting USPCA, but your false sense of security can get you killed when you need to draw to protect your life from your CARRY holster, concealed under a garment, and whaddya know, it's not just like drawing from your speed holster, so it took you an extra 3/4ths of a second to draw from it, than it would have if you had trained in IDPA from your CARRY holster, and that 3/4ths of a second is all the BG needed to kill you DEAD.

The example of the guide rod is beside the point. Why? Because it ain't got nothing to do with the primary difference, and that is holster type, extra mag pouch type, actual number of exta mags (or speedloaders) and method of holster carry. Now, should IDPA let you use any damn guide rod you want, and are their rules idiotic for not let you using it? Yes, and yes. But you could still shoot the IDPA course with it, and just not receive a score, which you really ought to do it this way if you're concerned about practicing for realistic scenarios. If you're not, then why did you show up for the IDPA event to begin with?

Jeeper, you're logic is entirely flawed, and here's why. You say that the IPSC guys usually win IDPA events. While you offer no evidence of that, let's assume for a moment that it is true. This doesn't prove that IPSC is a better way to train for real scenarios. It only proves that the best shooters, and those dedicated to becoming the best shooters are initially drawn to IPSC first, for whatever reason, and then happen to also do quite well at IDPA when they choose to do it. It does NOT prove that they would not be even better at IDPA if they had done IDPA to begin with. It also does not prove that they would be EVEN better well-prepared and trained for REAL defensive scenarios if they had competed in IDPA all along, and they would. So, flawed logic. It only proves that a lot of really motivated and/or talented guys LIKE to shoot IPSC (probably because they are competitive and it is indeed a GAME). But they are competing in a JOKE, *IF* (and that's a huge if) their goal is to become the best possibly prepared to save their life.

Quote:
there's a WHOLE lot of peopel out there who coudn't give a crap what YOU think the point of something is supposed to be.
Spelling mistakes aside, that entirely misses the point as well. I'm not saying that is it wrong to play a game. More power to you - no one is wrong for thinking that the point is playing a game - in fact, they're exactly right - that's what it is, and what it is alone. But it remains a joke if they're trying to train to save their life by drawing from CONCEALMENT when the feces collides.

Quote:
It's a GAME it doesnt have to be some kind of "real life simulation".
Exactly my point - IPSC is a game, not a "real life simulation". Glad we agree. And, since the time you spend on this game COULD be spent on a game that happens to try very hard to be a "real life simulation" (at least as close as we can come - it's called IDPA), then you're really wasting valuable time, once again - only *IF* your goal is to prepare for emergencies.

Meh, just my opinion. Guess I'm not the only one, though, since Ken Hackathorn, Richard Thomas, John Sayle, Walt Rauch, Larry Vickers and Bill Wilson started IDPA for the reason that their opinion was exactly the same as mine, as I understand it. But to be fair, I guess I mispoke when I said that the entire point is to train for real life encounters - that would be the entire point for ME, but obviously not everyone. It just seems to me such a waste of time to be participating in a nearly identical sport that only trains you 80% on realism, when you could spend that exact same time on a sport that trains you 98% on realism. Obviously, I firmly believe that the muscle memory formed, which takes over in an adrenaline-rushed emergency, by virtue of using the exact same holster carried in the exact same way, is of the utmost importance is slicing fractions of a second of the time it takes to get to those all-important first well-placed shots, to put the BG down, before the BG get his shots off and puts you down. See, I *knew* I'd get flamed - ha!
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Old July 13, 2004, 12:24 PM   #9
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I shoot IPSC because I enjoy it, not because I am hell-bent on using every free moment to prepare for a self-defense situation.

That being said, trigger time is always beneficial. Trigger control, proper use of sights -- it all transferable to whatever you do. Personally, I sometimes compete with a speed rig and sometimes with my carry gun -- nothing says you have to use a race gun -- there are whole divisions for production guns.

I certainly disagree with IDPA being 98% realistic. I don't find it to be even 20% realistic if I had to pull a percentage out of the air. When I shoot IDPA (which admittedly is not that often), it sure seems like OFFENSE to me. I cruise through a scenario advancing on multiple targets and shooting at things that are not shooting at me until they are all dead. In real life in 90% of those scenarios I would beat feet and run. Plus -- how realistic can it be if you are not under attack in any way? Don't get too high on your horse about the realism of IDPA.

As for game playing, I would sure rather be out with my friends throwing lead at an IPSC match than sitting at home on the couch with a video game.
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Old July 13, 2004, 01:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
When I shoot IDPA (which admittedly is not that often), it sure seems like OFFENSE to me. I cruise through a scenario advancing on multiple targets and shooting at things that are not shooting at me until they are all dead. In real life in 90% of those scenarios I would beat feet and run. Plus -- how realistic can it be if you are not under attack in any way? Don't get too high on your horse about the realism of IDPA.
Good point. But OK, suppose IDPA is 20% realistic. But if so, then IPSC is only 10% realistic. So which do you choose to spend time on? The best of the available choices. Oh well.
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Old July 13, 2004, 01:42 PM   #11
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First Freedom,

If you are going to insult the sport please at lease learn the letters first. Obviously you didnt read my first post very well when you pointed this out. IT IS USPSA!!!

You obviously know very little about IDPA also if you don’t know who the best shooters are. Lets look at last years national champions. Dave Sevigny (USPSA Grandmaster), Matt Burket (USPSA Grandmaster), Ernest Langdon(USPSA Master). The winningest IDPA shooter for nationals is Rob Leatham who is the greatest USPSA shooter of all time.

I think the reason that your logic is so completely flawed is that you think drawing from a certain holster or other gear means that you cant draw from anything else.

98% realistic is funny since you know that you are going to shoot in a match but not on the street. What is the difference between the two and what is real life. Most gunfights are under three shots and under 3 yards. How many IDPA scenarios are like that. It would be pretty boring. The only difference is that you wear a vest and a slightly different holster. My carry method and gun arent allowed in IDPA.

The two sports are almost identical in what they teach someone to do. They teach about shooting and drawing under stress. What do you think you are trying to learn. No situation is ever the same. Gun handling is gun handling. When you become good at it the gear is irrelevant. Perfect example is watching a GM shoot a match with a borrowed gun and holster. Do they still shoot better than most. Of course they do. I think it is funny that you list people like Bill Wilson. Ask him if he would want o take on a USPSA GM on the street? Ask him if he thinks that USPSA means that you cant handle street situations? Everyone in the know realizes that good gun handling is universal. Maybe everyone but you!
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Old July 13, 2004, 01:51 PM   #12
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Why let some "tactical" poser pull your chain?

Especially when he doesn't even know the initials of the organization he's denigrating? It's uspSa; not uspCa, ace

Yeah, we've all seen this debate before; how IDPA is "real world" and all. Without for a moment suggesting that any USPSA division other than Production and - depending on your gear - Revolver is remotely "practical;" neither do I buy into that "IDPA trains for Real Life" nonsense.

In "Real Life," your primary responsibility is to WITHDRAW if possible; not engage, unless you are law enforcement.

Moreover, you will be dealing with targets HUNTING you and SHOOTING AT you; IPDA provides neither. Cardboard is not a threat.

So, unless you attend one of those shoot-back simulator ranges where you WILL receive fire unless and until you neutralize the threat, spare us the lectures on how "tactical and practical" you are. The fact is, USPSA shooters can shoot IDPA and kick butt - how many IDPA shooters transition to USPSA successfully?
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Old July 13, 2004, 01:57 PM   #13
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If you recall, Bill Wilson was a pretty high ranked USPSA shooter himself. IDPA is a lot more like IPSC of the 70s and early 80s than the "my match is better than your match" types from either side are willing to admit. I am sure he got IDPA going because he saw the P for Practical fading out of IPSC. If IPSC/USPSA had put in the stock gun classes and some carry holster requirements ten years earlier, there might not BE an IDPA because there could have been room for everybody in IPSC. But the then USPSA and IPSC management made the choice to totally favor the "gamesmen" over the "martial artists" and the split was done.
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Old July 13, 2004, 04:30 PM   #14
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Oops, USPSA; sorry. Why would I learn the details of such a joke that uses silly Buck Rogers holsters?

Well, the fact remains that logic dictates that you would choose the one that is the most realistic of the two, whether it's 98% realistic or 2%, as long as it's the more realistic of the two (i.e. if the other one is 1%), *if* you're serious about self-defense. A lot like choosing a president this year. (I guess GSSF is the green party candidate). No one's been able to refute that, nor will anyone be able to. Everything else is a complete red herring. You talk a lot but say very little, number 6.
Quote:
spare us the lectures on how "tactical and practical" you are
In fact, I'm confused; show me again where I said anything remotely resembling anything of the sort. You need a lesson in logic 101, and the fallacy of the straw man.

Jeeper:

Quote:
I think the reason that your logic is so completely flawed is that you think drawing from a certain holster or other gear means that you cant draw from anything else
No, that's not it at all. I didn't say that; and it is your logic that is flawed; not mine. I didn't say that you *can't* draw from anything else. I said that when your life is on the line, it's certainly possible, and quite likely in fact, that if you don't draw from the exact same holster you've trained with, it will take you a half second longer, give or take a few fractions of a second, and that could well nigh be the difference between life and death. The fact is, as long as you're spending all this time on a training game, why not choose the one that is likely to be most helpful, even if only a scrunthair more likely? It so happens that IDPA is significantly more likely to help when the muscle memory nut-cuttin comes down in an adrenaline rush, and you fumble with your carry draw, because it's not like your Han Solo rig. And the duty to retreat is a red herring, because obviously in real life, you can and will retreat if you can, but the scenarios are if someone or someones are hellbent on killing you, and what do you do then?


Jim Watson:

Quote:
am sure he got IDPA going because he saw the P for Practical fading out of IPSC. If IPSC/USPSA had put in the stock gun classes and some carry holster requirements ten years earlier, there might not BE an IDPA because there could have been room for everybody in IPSC. But the then USPSA and IPSC management made the choice to totally favor the "gamesmen" over the "martial artists" and the split was done.
Exactly. All supports my conclusion (and Bill Wilson's, and...). Thank you.
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Old July 13, 2004, 05:05 PM   #15
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Reality check

Our Tactical Titan issues this challenge:

"In fact, I'm confused; show me again where I said anything remotely resembling anything of the sort."

Well, the first assertion is clearly correct. As for the rest:

"If I want to play a game, I'll stay home and play Unreal Tournament or Everquest. If I want to train to help save my life in the future (potentially), AND have fun doing it, I'll shoot IDPA, thank you very much"

Your words, ace: "If I want to train to help save my life..." If you want that, go to a real school and / or a shoot-back sim. Heck, even a good paintball tournament will provide more "practical" skills than stalking killer cardboard.

If, as, and when the paper shoots back, you can tell us all about the "training" you got at IDPA events. Unless and until that happens, you're just playing a version of the USPSA game. Stop deluding yourself. :barf:
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Old July 13, 2004, 05:10 PM   #16
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If you were serious about self defense only then you wouldnt shoot either type of competition. You would spend all that money attending places like gunsite. You would hire people to surprise you in public. You wouldnt play games AT ALL.

You quote people who wouldnt agree with you. There really isnt any point in arguing with you further since you have missed every point that has been presented. Your only point is muscle memory. The next time you get in a gunfight where you are shooting at cardboard that doesnt shoot back or move and where the gunfight starts with a beep after a series of range commands please let us know.
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Old July 13, 2004, 05:17 PM   #17
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Jeeper, you are absolutely correct. But that's more of a time commitment than a 1 day a week scenario. But no, it is you have have missed the one and only point - teaching a pig to sing with you. And tell me, genius, how is it that the fact that a target is cardboard affects your draw and firing technique?

Number 6 - dude, you are so making up stuff, it's incredible. I don't think for one second unreal tournament is in any way "tactical" - nor did I say that I was - show me again where I said I was "tactical" (whatever that may be), or in any way even implied it? You are completely putting words in my mouth, and your conclusions are wrong, to the extent you base them on these words you put in my mouth. Unreal tournament has nothing to do with anything - it's simply a game I can play if I want to play a game - just use monopoly instead - its beside the point. I never said I was tactical, and quite franky, it's you who are the poser - posing as one who purports to possess logic. Again, IDPA may not be totally realistic, or even fair to partly realistic, but that is utterly irrelevant to my point - the only thing relevant is, is it *MORE* realistic than the alternative, for a one-day time commitment training exercise, than the other alternatives? The answer, with respect to IPSC, is yes. GSSF, bout the same. So why waste time with it? And I just disagree; paintball is not as good of a training exercise for using a CCW tool in self defense, as either IPSC or IDPA, but particularly not as good as IDPA. That's like preparing for a gunfight with your knife - apples and oranges. I'm not deluding anyone. Gunsite or shoot-back sims are great, when and if you have the time and money, as often as may be possible. But when you don't, which is the better choice? You are the king of red herrings, and you and jeeper there suffer from chronic RCI.
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Old July 13, 2004, 05:31 PM   #18
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Yeah, anything that rewards fast accuracy with a powerful pistol must be a complete waste of time .

I find the raceguns to be an interesting and impressive show, but I'll stick to Limited or Limited 10 myself.
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Old July 14, 2004, 01:20 AM   #19
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In a recent IDPA match, one course of fire had five steel plates partially obscured by two cardboard targets. The start line was SIX FEET from the targets. If the situation ever arises that I have to engage five carjackers with 8" diameter heads while standing inside a FedEx truck, then I will thank IDPA for their "realistic" training. Until then, IPSC and IDPA will remain, to me, sport, with IPSC Open being nothing more than an equipment race and IDPA chock full of arbitrary and ridiculous rules. I can have an extended magazine, but not a magwell? I can have night sights but not a ghost ring? An extended slide release is ok, but not an extended mag release?

If you can't shoot Limited, shoot Open.
If you can't shoot Open, shoot Cowboy.
If you can't shoot Cowboy, shoot Paintball.
If you like to comply with inane rules, shoot IDPA
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Old July 15, 2004, 10:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
The entire point is to simulate real, potential defensive encounters.
This is where you made your mistake, making a faulty assumption.
That is not the entire point. It is, in fact, no part whatsoever of the point.
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Old July 15, 2004, 05:40 PM   #21
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Random musings:

1) "False dichotomy": the notion that because someone participates in one sport, they don't participate in the other.

2) Other than breathing and trigger control, indoor three-position smallbore has squat to do with shooting real rifles, but lots of folks sure do seem to enjoy it, and it can't hurt your performance with your thutty-thutty.

3) The "Keepin' It Real" touts will get a lot more notice from me when I see a stage where you earn maximum points for diving behind hard cover at the buzzer and drawing... ...your cell phone.



Oh, and can we continue the discussion with a little less vitriol?
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Old July 16, 2004, 05:51 PM   #22
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Steel plates at SIX FEET?

Thats a MAJOR safety violation if anyone hasnt told you yet.

Was anyone injured?
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Old July 16, 2004, 09:12 PM   #23
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Duke...yards...I meant yards....six feet would be ridiculous. Thanks for catching that flub. And yeah, many of us were hit by flying shrapnel. So much so that that the club vowed to never have any steel closer than 25 feet, and every match since then, the plates have been put at 10 yards.
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Old July 17, 2004, 04:25 AM   #24
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My 2 cents, not everybody shoots IPSC with raceguns, many people shoot with their carry gear, there are many divisions to allow for whatever you want. LImited, limited 10 and Production. I don't think anyone pointed that out..... that's all...
bicker on!
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Old July 18, 2004, 01:28 AM   #25
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First Freedom, have you ever shot a USPSA match? I found that most people who criticize USPSA have not even shot a USPSA match. Or you shot one and got your A#$% handed to you by a B class shooter. Just ASking??
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