Reports from 3 Gun

[MiniZ]

My hat is off to all involved. Great job guys!
Knowing most of you like I do, I am sure that if you are there next year, things will go better. I've never met a bunch that learns from their experiences the way you do.

[George Hill]

Larry: Yeah, I know you can't buy skill... but I've never seen a professional gunslinger carry a gun with a huge mag funnel, pink receiver, or a muzzle break off a 155.
The left side charging handle in the AR receiver - that's just a dang good idea. If they just did something with the gas system and the ejector...

[Correia]

You better believe it Zane. I've got a long list of skills I need to brush up on. I'm excited for next year, and I'm going to make plans to go the the Mystery Mountain 3 gun in March for another big match. (if Bridget will let me since it is right before our aniversary!) I'm going to train hard this year.

I don't know George, if somebody gave me a free pink SVI I would carry it.

[George Hill]

but not for long

[Andrew Wyatt]

several of the LE shooters have letters on department letterhead from their superiors stating that they do indeed carry the pistol they shot in the match in the holster they shot with in the match.
as for the pink pistols, I find them no more offensive than a hardcromed 1911, or a sig with fancy grips. the coloring of a pistol does not affect it's combat worthiness in my opinion.
if you'll notice, the muzzlebreaks all fit within the guidelines of the match (a 155mm cannon muzzlebreak exceeds the dimensions by aproximately twenty times in both directions)
as for the tuned Ar-15's, they're obviously reliable enough, or the people who shot them wouldn't have placed very high in the match. Just beacuse an ar doesn't look tactical, that doesn't preclude the possibility that it goes bang and squirts lead out the end.

if you still think that these are problems that need addressing, email one of the staffers at the match and look at the FAQ on the SWAT 3 gun site.

I'd like to start a TFL team 2 for next year with come california area TFLers, or even some TFLers from a free state who want to shoot in the match.

[George Hill]

Yeah... very tactical...

[PvtPyle]

Personally I think monsters like those should be regulated to the precision rifle matches only. Something like that would be great for a match like that, but for a realistic match like the BHD and night shoots you should have to carry a weapon that would really work in the field. I would give the JP's a week max in real field use by a soldier. Maybe less since they would get ridiculed to death for all those fancy pouge colors.:barf:

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to have one for precision shooting, But even then it would not be in pimp colors, just plain old black. Or maybe desert tan.

[Andrew Wyatt]

none of those rifles you posted are legal in the match.

their compensators are too big, and they probably don't make weight.

if you didn't like shooting the match, i'd be happy to take your place on the team.

john gangl (the guy who owns JP enterprises) makes a rifle specifically for the SWAT magazine 3 gun match which is pretty damned tactical. It comes in that black color you seem to like, and substitutes a harmonic stabilizer for the muzzlebreak.

[PvtPyle]

Yeah, come to think of it, I dont remember actually seeing someone USE those beasts. What is he getting for the tactical one, any ideas off the top of your head? Does it meet the weight reqs?

If you do hold a precision rifle match, that would be a great way to go! Cut the weight at 18lbs or so (that way I could use one from the vault with all the cool optics!) and run it out to the farthest you can manage on the ranges.....

As for actually competing against the guys that own these things, they could use a High point carbine and beat me. While the rifle provides a big advantage, it cant make up for skill. Aint that right Denny?

I dont plan on going anywhere any time soon. This stuff is worse than crack for getting addicted to! But nice try

[Andrew Wyatt]

well, I don't know off the top of my head, but the price for the tactical ones is a lot.

all of the rifles you saw at the match make the weight requirements.

[Scott Evans]

I am still in Vegas … and I’ve been having trouble getting connected to the net while here so this is my first look since I’ve been gone. Hopefully I’ll be able to get on again before getting home.

My folks gave my wife and I an anniversary gift and sent her out following the match for a few days with me with no kids. First time in some 15 years! Thanks Mom and Dad!

Likewise; many thanks to Rich for the match. I had an absolute blast … I can’t express how much I appreciate it. Also; my comrades on both the SWAT and TFL teams are class people, and more then ever, good friends. I was really privileged to be here and grouped with such a fine bunch.

The WC3Gun is a superbly run match by any standard and I would encourage any who might be thinking about next year to go ahead and commit. It is certainly my intention to shoot it again next year if possible. If business growth permits I’d like to see a G-Code team there.

As far as performance all I can say is that I was humbled and challenged all at the same time. In retrospect I can see where my foul-ups from day 1 produced excessive caution on my part during day 2(i.e. respectable hits but very slow times). It was not until day 3 that I was attacking the courses of fire as necessary. It was not until the last Shotgun stage (the mortar pit) that I felt I had a stage run equal to my ability. In any event I was not as prepared as well as I thought. Even if I had preformed my best through each stage the skill level of the top 75 scorers (or more) was well beyond my reach. “Wow these guys are good!” Was a reoccurring though for me the entire match. Coming away I can see that I need to broaden the scenarios that I train for and improve my physical condition. Likewise; my speed is not up to par. Also, next year I will need to approach with more match experience under my belt. Last; and you just cannot get away from it, equipment needs to be upgraded. High capacity magazines trump in any stage with out predetermined reloads (most of them). High dollar optics beat low buck scopes past 100 yards and gadgets and gear such as bi-pods, mag carriers, stacked shot gun shell holders and holsters all are enablers if one trains with them. Certainly I do not want to lessen my tactical perspective by turning “gamer”, however; the equipment improvements I have in mind would serve me well similarly armed in an actual conflict.

To the friendly rivalry between team SWAT and TFL: I was of the opinion that the SWAT guys were on top as the night shoot was the only “team” score of the match. Larry, your scoring is at best an unofficial “side match”. At the appointed time and place for the, one and only, “Team” event … they punched our lights out.

Good job SWAT!

[Correia]

That they did Scott. That they did. The LED targets are still laughing at me.

An Edge Works team would be a contender. You have some some high-speed employees. When you get back, e-mail me and I'll give you an update of how the local stores like the G-Code.

[Rob Pincus]

Andrew,

Don't take our belly-aching too seriously. The last thing that anyone from Team SWAT is going to do is get inolved in the way the match itself is run or regulated. The entire event staff did a great job. As soon as something becomes a competition, there is a need for rules and scores. Everyone would probably change one or two things to make the amtch suit them better, but that doesn't work. Tactical choices are often subjective and you can't score a match like this subjectively. The staff of WC3GM seems to have worked out a consistent and fair set of rules taht come reasonably close to making people behave in a tactically sound manner while clearing the stages.

As for the gear, I have a personal thing against big mag wells... particularly ones that are so big that you need special mags or base plates to reload the weapon effectively. But if the staff thinks they should b allowed, then I guess I'll see a lot of them next year!

Having department letterhead stating that a weapon was "qualified with" or "is used" is no measure of the weapon's combat effectiveness nor is it some stamp of tactical approval. I have no idea which weapons or officers you are referring to, but if they are carrying pistols giant mag funnels and carrying 5 extra mags with blue anodized aluminum baseplates I think that some critical thinking should be applied.

Scott,

Thanks for the accurate representation of the Team vs. Individual events. Now that we know how it works, we can be more specific about what earns what next year. Meanwhile, let's leave the creative accounting to Wall Street. 'sides, we all know that the better team must be the one with the least deviation between individual member scores!

[Denny Hansen]

I believe the match staff did a superb job on all fronts.

As to equipment, I'm not sure it really matters as long as the guns run and the shooter does his part. Overheard while waiting to buy a souvenir T-shirt for my daughter: "Yeah, well give me a gun like Jim Clark's and a bunch of sponsors and I could shoot that good too!" My unsolicited resonse: "No, you couldn't."

[PvtPyle]

Come on Denny, surely SOMEONE out there can figure out how to buy proficiancy!

Andrew, you will hear bitching about something from everyone at one time or another. But as I explained to some other shooters, you have to find that fine balance of making the game fun and making the game realistic. And thats what it is, a game. You also have to find that fine balance of realism vs. safety. I have never been to a match where the sponsors and staff have pleased everyone. Nor have I ever been to a match of any type that was as much fun and as well done as the one you guys put on. Please pass that along to the rest of the staff. I tried to tell everyone I could but I am sure I missed one or two. Kudos to you all.

I would however like to see some of the top shooters fire weapons that are more or less stock. Not in a competition for money, but instead to see how much the other gizmos, wigits, and dohickies make a difference. That would probably be the biggest indicator of how much they help. Granted it may only be in 10ths of a second, but at the level they are shooting, that can big a big difference. I would just love to see how they do with the same guns most of us use. Talk about showing how a weapon can be pushed to its limits!

Rob, I am sure with a bit of notice for next year, I can get the TFL guys up to speed on their rifle skills, and Larry can get us up to speed on our shotgun skills. He will have to find my skill first because I dont think I have any in there. That way we will all be closer to the 100th place mark next year. We will probably place between 95 and 105 for next year. Thats fairly close together

[Correia]

Creative accounting? OUCH! I resemble that remark.

I could buy proficiency. You just watch. One of these days the stuff from the Million Dollar Man is going to come true. Only downside is that I'll make all those bionic whooshing noises while I shoot.

[George Hill]

Buying skills... even if I had one of those pimp JP's I know I still couldn't run the course like those guys. Don't think I'm making equipment excuses.
Wyatt... I DID see one of those rifles being used in the games. Seriously. The team just before ours had one on the Targets of Oportunity stage. We saw him zipping it up in the case. Admitedly, I didn't see the muzzle break but everything else was as pictured above. Ask your Dad if some one was using it... I think he could confirm that.

I also observed a G36K on that same stage some time later. Now THAT would be a great rifle for these matches!

I'll second Pyle's comment on seeing these guys run a real "Stock" gun.
You guys are familiar with the term "IROC"? The IROC race series takes the best drivers and puts them in cars that are all as same as possible. I think that would be a great match. All US GI Issue weapons. But I suspect that the same guys at the tops of the list would remain the same guys at the tops of this list too. You have to hand it to those fellas - they sure can shoot!

[Andrew Wyatt]

well, whatever. I'm going to shoot the match next year with my single stack, my 500 and either my mini or my dad's m-1a and not worry about what other people are doing.


does anyone know offhand if any of the TFL members from bakersfield or anywhere else in california would like to form up a team for next year?

[Correia]

Andy, look up a TFLer by the name of El Rojo. He is located in Kearn County. He is a precision shooter, but I imagine that 3 gun would be right up his alley. He is a good guy. Other than that, I know that we have a bunch of guys up and down the coast. How into 3 gun they would be remains to be seen.

And they do occasionaly have matches where everybody shoots basically the same gun. Like the Single Stack Classic. Guess what. The same guys win, by about the same margin. It ain't the machine, it is the man.

Speaking of machine, I figured out what went wrong with my FAL, but I've got a post going on about that over in Art Of The Rifle.

[ChandlerSniper158]

Glad to see you guys had a good time out there, too bad we never got to hook up and shake hands. You completed the match safely and learned from your experience..now you know what your in for next year. Take what you learned from this match and train for next year...

AS for the equipment race thing.. just a note. The 4th place shooter Tony Huerstel was shooting an iron sighted AR-15, a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a stock Glock 35, and I know this for a fact, he is my friend and I shot with him all week. Wazoo guns and equipment are not a replacement for skill with a weapon, but they can help a bit.

Andrew..I think you and I were talking the nite of the L/E team shoots.. I was with the LAPD guys, and let you check out my M4 with the NSN ACOG.

Rich and Denny, Thank you for stepping up and providing your support to the people who make this match possible, even if you don`t hear it from every shooter.. your help is greatly appreciated.

See you guys next year,
CS#158

[PvtPyle]

AS for the equipment race thing.. just a note. The 4th place shooter Tony Huerstal was shooting an iron sighted AR-15, a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a stock Glock 35, and I know this for a fact, he is my friend and I shot with him all week. Wazoo guns and equipment are not a replacement for skill with a weapon, but they can help a bit

See! Thats what I am talking about! This guy came in with stock equipment, chewed some bubblegum, kicked some butt, and took some names! I really wish I had had the oportunity to see this guy shoot. Maybe next year.

Andrew, I know a couple of military shooters from the match that are looking to form a team. They are from back east, but they are good guys and seem to be competent with their weapons. If you can find another person in your area to team up and train with, maybe you guys can form a "bi-coastal" team.

[Andrew Wyatt]

chandlersniper158: aah, okay. i remember you. I'm quite favorably impressed with the NSN as my TA01 was much less suitable for night shooting due to its really overbright reticle.

I'll probably Pm el rojo tonight and see how interested he would be.

[Correia]

Andrew, he just PMed me back. He is interested, and he has another TFLer who lives in Bakersfield who also may be game.

[Rob Pincus]

I'd love to see some of the top shooters in an ISOC (not I-suck, I-SOC, Internation Shoot of Champions) competition.

AR, Glock 21 or Standard 1911 type and an 870. That would be superbly cool. I'd like to see who choked it.


Chandler158,

I'm taking PR II with the Iron Brigade boys next month, have you been through it yet?

[ChandlerSniper158]

Rob,

Yeah.. you`ll dig it.. they have the UKD range all done since I was there last.. you can shoot out to about 700 yds from the tower now. You`ll definately get to put a few rounds downrange while your there. Let me know how ya like it.

CS#158