Savage model 1920

[Roamin_Wade]

I have a soft spot for Savage Firearms. My first deer rifle was a Savage Model 99F in the outstanding .243 Win. I’m not much for the new guns they make but I do kinda like the Model 14. I recently found out that the Model 1920 existed and looking at it, I find the lines and profile simply exquisite. They only made them in 2 calibers and those were the proprietary rounds 250-3000 and the 300 Savage. So far I’ve only seen pictures of them so I’m wondering if anyone here has any personal or even second hand knowledge of this rifle and how it rates to them. Thanks!

[Scorch]

I had one come in last year, the customer wanted it rebarreled to 308. It went away because there are no stocks made for them and the cost of labor and parts made the owner reconsider as he could buy a very nice new rifle for about the same money. These are typical early 20th Century rifles, lots of drop at the heel because they were designed for iron sight use (not scopes) and the 2-stage trigger is similar to a military rifle trigger. Not a bad rifle, just somewhat dated.

[taylorce1]

Not on the rifle, but I have some experience with both cartridges. If I wanted one I'd probably go with the .250-3000, just because of the stock design and felt recoil. Shooting 180 grain bullets in .300 Savage might not be any fun with the amount of drop those stock have.

[Mike Irwin]

It's been a long time since I've handled one, but I've always been on the look out to pick one up.

They are very sweet, light, and handy rifles.

Here's a good run down on them: http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...er-Bolt-Action

What I didn't know is that a few were chambered in .30-06. I bet that those bring very dear prices.

The 1920 was only make for about 5 years before an improved version, the Model 20, was introduced.

[Jim Watson]

The main improvement was better stock dimensions. Didn't help, the model only lasted another three years to be replaced by the clunky rear locking Savage bolt actions which stayed in production many years longer. Must have been the lower price.

[Mike Irwin]

Holy crud, prices are all OVER the place on these rifles.

[McShooty]

The Savage 1920 is an exquisite rifle and it handles just as good as it looks. I have one in .300 Savage and it shoots very well, especially the Hornady Superformance 150 gr load which spits out a 150 grainer at about 2700 fps. It would make no sense to rebarrel to .308 if this load or similar handloads are available. Not to mention that this rifle has collector interest that would be gone upon rebarreling. The action, similar to Mauser in that it has opposed front locking lugs and a claw extractor, is nowhere near long enough for the 30-06. Savage did not introduce a 30-06 until they brought out the models 40 and 45 in 1928. at that point the 1920 disappeared. The 40/45 type was a much less elegant rifle, but strong and serviceable. It was chambered in .250-3000, .300 Savage, and .30 WCF, in addition to .30-06.

Not counting sporterized military rifles, the 1920 was about the first bolt action rifle made entirely for sporting use by a major arms company. The Winchester 54 did not appear until 1925. In 1926 Savage changed the stock of the 1920 a bit and added an aperture sight mounted on the bolt sleeve. This is usually called the Model 1920/1926 by collectors. You would be lucky to find one of these little beauties for less than $1,000 and they often command more, especially in .250-3000.

[105kw]

I had a model 1920 for a couple of years.
Somebody rebarreled the gun and left it in .300 Savage.

Fast pointing, really neat peep sights.
Decently accurate.

I sold it to an aquaintance, for his grandkids as a hunter.
Still looking for another.
Beautiful gun, fun. I love the Savage guns of this era through the end of the 1950s

[Roamin_Wade]

Thank you, all of you! This place rocks!

[Dave Anderson]

The issue of the Savage 1920 being chambered in .30-'06 can be a bit confusing. As McShooty has noted, the commercial version released by Savage as the model 1920 is a short action, too short to accept .30-'06 length cartridges.

However when the design was being developed and prototypes made (during the time frame around 1915), it was originally made as what we would now call a standard, or .30-'06 length action. Several prototypes were chambered in .30-'06 as well as other military cartridges of the era including 7x57 Mauser and .303 British. Apparently at least one prototype was chambered in .256 Newton (.30'-'06 case necked to .264"/6.5mm).

Savage decided to market the rifle as a lightweight sporter and the model 1920 was made on a short action, initially chambered for the .250-3000 cartridge. The .300 Savage, approximating .30-'06 ballistics of the era, was released shortly after. The .300 Savage is a remarkably modern looking cartridge with short neck and 30-degree shoulder, quite similar in design to the 6.5 Creedmoor.

So while it is correct to say no Savage marked as the model 1920 was ever chambered in .30-'06, there were a few prototypes, basically identical in design, which were chambered for the '06.

As a lightweight sporter the 1920 in .250-3000 was ridiculously ahead of its time.

[Mike Irwin]

"The action, similar to Mauser in that it has opposed front locking lugs and a claw extractor, is nowhere near long enough for the 30-06."

Nope. But, Savage apparently made several lengthened action prototypes based on the Model 20, or what would become the Model 20, to gauge whether or not it was worth offering them commercially.

Apparently it wasn't, so the long-action model 20s are apparently turbo rare.


Whoops. I see Dave Anderson already beat me to it. I should read the entire thread before commenting.

It's really no more confusing than, say, encountering two Remington 700 rifles, one chambered in .300 Win Mag., one chambered in .308.

Well, the Model 700 isn't capable of chambering the .300 Win. Mag! It's way too long of a cartridge!

Yeah, the 700 short action isn't, but the 700 long action is...

[McShooty]

Have to say that, unlike the Model 700, the Savage 1920 was offered for sale only in the short action length, so no .30-06. I have heard of these prototypes but I have never seen a picture or description of same. I would be grateful for a link or suggestion of where to look. Roamin Wade you might find this interesting.

http://ataleoftwothirties.com/?p=1541

[Dave Anderson]

You might try to find a copy of "The Bolt Action", Vol. II, by Stuart Otteson. Chapter 2 is on the Savage 1920 and has photos of two prototypes, one a military version and the other a sporter. Long out of print but I see used copies on Amazon at prices from $100 - $200+.

Quite the article at the link you provided. I especially liked this statement:

"The Savage Model 1920 was the first bolt action sporting rifle to be offered to the hunting public by a major arms company. Yup, the first!"

Just off the top of my head, earlier bolt-action sporters included the Remington-Keene (1880), Remington-Lee (1899), Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, and several models of Mauser '98 commercial sporters commencing in 1898.

[Mike Irwin]

"The Savage Model 1920 was the first bolt action sporting rifle to be offered to the hunting public by a major arms company. Yup, the first!"

Generally it's said that the Model 1920 was the first bolt action to be designed and offered specifically as a sporting rifle.

All of the others you've listed were originally designed primarily for military use and were repurposed as civilian sporting rifles after they failed to gain much traction as military arms.

The obvious exception to that is Mauser 98 and, to a lesser degree, the Mannlicher.

[Don Fischer]

The first? Wasn't the Newton rifle out around that time? That 1920 was a nice looking rifle. I'd never heard of seen one before that article up above.

[Mike Irwin]

Newton's first rifles were Mauser 98-based sporters, inported to the US in 1914, just before World War I started.

I believe that the first Newton-manufactured rifles, the Model 1916, was based on that Mauser action.

It's a gray area, I think.

[Dave Anderson]

"The Savage Model 1920 was the first bolt action sporting rifle to be offered to the hunting public by a major arms company. Yup, the first!"

The above statement is incorrect. Nothing "gray" about it, it is flat-out wrong.

"Generally it's said that the Model 1920 was the first bolt action to be designed and offered specifically as a sporting rifle."

"All of the others you've listed were originally designed primarily for military use and were repurposed as civilian sporting rifles after they failed to gain much traction as military arms."

Also incorrect. The Savage bolt-action was designed in the hope of getting military contracts, which is why prototypes were chambered for the military service cartridges of the U.S., Great Britain (.303 British) and the Latin-American market (7x57). After it failed to attract any interest as a military arm it was adapted to sporting use, just like some of the earlier examples I mentioned.

[Jim Watson]

Heck, the Savage 95/99 was designed with visions of military contracts dancing in ol' Arthur's head.

[Dave Anderson]

Hope the original poster found the historical discussion interesting. I got the impression he was interested in the 1920 to use as a hunting rifle. A few random observations based on experience with my 1920 in .250-3000:

The factory stock dimensions are intended for use with iron sights. Drop at comb is 1 1/2", drop at heel is 2 3/4". Length of pull is 13 1/2". My rifle has the Lyman 54 bolt sleeve sight and for iron sight use the stock dimensions fit me adequately.

The rifle was never factory drilled and tapped for scope bases, although quite a few have had bases fitted by gunsmiths. I'd certainly never D&T my rifle, both because it would reduce collector value and the stock design would make it awkward to use with a scope.

At least one source says the 1920 buttplate was made of aluminum. I can't speak for every rifle of course, but both buttplate and grip cap of my rifle are made of steel.

My rifle, s/n 71XX, left the factory on Sept. 11, 1920 according to the letter I got from John T. Callahan based on factory records. Evidently at least 6,000+ model 1920s were made in the first year of production. Incidentally serial numbers started at 1000. Apparently enough were made in 1920 to handle orders through 1922, as records indicate they did another production run in 1923.

The design shows its military influence in features such as the clip slot guide in the receiver bridge, and the military-style two stage trigger. The trigger is safe and reasonably consistent, which is about all the good you can say about it. There's a fairly long take-up; the second stage breaks at over 6 1/4 pounds. Overtravel is minimal though which is quite an achievement considering the sear is also the bolt stop, and the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear to remove the bolt.

The Lyman 54 bolt sleeve sight was designed specifically for the model 1920, and fits no other rifle. A leaf sight with elevator fitted in a slot in the barrel was standard equipment. One vintage Savage catalog shows the jobber (distributor) price at $27.50, with the Lyman sight available as an option for an additional $2.50. The revised model 20 introduced in 1926 with heavier barrel and stock used the Lyman 54 as the standard sight, with no slot cut in the barrel.

I can't find exact production figures but some sources say there were about 9,500 of the original 1920 model, and 2,500 of the revised 1920/26 model. Probably no more than around 3,000 to 4,000 of the Lyman 54 bolt sleeve sights were made.

I've never owned a 1920 in .300 Savage though I do have a couple .300s in model 99 rifles, as well as a couple 99s in .250-3000. The .300 is quite a powerful cartridge and I can well imagine recoil in the original light 1920s was unpleasant for many. Also the tang is inletted into the stock wood (with both 1920 and 99 rifles) and it is very common to see cracks develop in the stock behind the tang.

The 1920 was a very strong rifle for its era with large locking lugs, a large receiver ring to contain the lug recesses, good workmanship, and I am sure the steel was of high quality.

What I like best about the 1920 is its light weight, fine balance, and lively, fast handling. I wouldn't dream of putting a scope on mine, it is a pleasure to carry in the trail position with one hand around the receiver. Assuming I'm still alive and mobile my plan is to hunt whitetail deer with it in 2020, when it is a century old.

The clip slot guide in the receiver bridge is an anomaly considering factory .250 and .300 Savage cartridges didn't come loaded in clips. However clips aren't hard to find. I picked up a dozen or so intended for use with 7.62 NATO cartridges. They keep spare ammo in a handy, flat package. It's kind of fun to use one for loading at the start of a hunt. Impresses your buddies no end!

[McShooty]

I have to agree with the "first bolt action sporter" statement made in the article and I think Mike Irwin's supportive comments are appropriate. It is likely that Savage may have done design work on potential military weapons, everybody did, but it seems unlikely that that they would have devoted many resources to such a project inasmuch as World War I, the war to end all wars, ended in 1918, with millions of convertible 1903 Springfields, 1917 Enfields, and 1898 Mausers left over. Strictly sporting arms would be a better project.

I offer the following quotation relating to the 1920 (Savage calls it the Model 20 in this time period) from the catalog "Savage Arms and Ammunition of 1928:

"For the many sportsmen desiring the simple, positive bolt action in a sporting rifle the Model 20 Rifle is appealing because the entire arm was designed for hunting requirements.

"The bolt with locking lugs behind chamber is the conventional design of most military rifles, but has been modified to eliminate unnecessary weight. The stock has the required high comb for use with peep sights, a large forearm for better grip and balance and medium weight barrel. A new highly polished finish adds to the arm's attractive appearance. Many experts proclaim the Savage Model 20 as the finest bolt action made for American big game fields."

[Mike Irwin]

"Also incorrect. The Savage bolt-action was designed in the hope of getting military contracts, which is why prototypes were chambered for the military service cartridges of the U.S., Great Britain (.303 British) and the Latin-American market (7x57)"

Dave, you have any reference material to that effect that cites Savage sources?

At the time, just after WW I, military budgets world wide were being slashed phenomenally because of the multiple peace processes that came out of the war.

No one was looking to rearm.

The .303 and 7x57 weren't just military cartridges, though, they were also very popular sporting cartridges in the Western Hemisphere.

Both cartridges were also fairly well known to US shooters at the time, especially the 7x57, leading Remington and Winchester to both chambered sporting rifles for it and rounds like the 7.65 Argentine and the 9x57 Mauser, and Winchester certainly wasn't trolling for military contracts with the Model 54.

[Mike Irwin]

Ah, thanks McShotty, I was trying to find a copy of a Savage catalog that might discuss the Model 1920/20.

I also don't buy the idea that stripper clip guides automatically make the rifle a military concept vehicle, or the two-stage trigger.

The Model 54 (a derivation of the Mauser 98, as were most designs of this time) also had a two-stage trigger, but it was never intended to be shopped to military customers.

In fact, the 54 also had stripper clip guides milled into the receiver.

I think the truth of the matter is that a lot of men were returning from military service and they were now familiar with bolt action rifles and loading them from stripper clips and in the years following the war massive amounts of surplus ammunition in many of those cartridges became available (both US and foreign manufactured).

Plus, the same stripper clip would (with the exception of .303 British) work for the .250-3000, .300 Savage, 7x57, 9x57, 7.65 Argentine, and .30-06 because all were based on the Mauser 7x57 case head.

Hell, in the time I hunted with my Savage 99 in .300 Savage I carried 5 extra rounds in a surplus stripper clip.

Not because the 99 had been a military spec rifle (the 95 was, but the 99 was the sporting redesign), but because it was an easy way of carrying those 5 rounds.

[Dave Anderson]

The Savage bolt action wasn't designed after WW I, it was designed in 1915 at a time when military arms were in great demand, and every major arms manufacturer naturally wanted a piece of the market.

If you need written proof, it is stamped on the barrel of the model 1920 rifles, as the first patent date listed is March 28, 1916.

I enjoy a spirited debate as much as anyone, I think now though we are reaching the stage of "it depends on what your definition of "is" is. The argument seems to be the 1920 was first because we don't count all the ones that came earlier.

If it pleases you to believe the 1920 was the first bolt-action sporting rifle, and was designed from the start strictly as a sporter, you're certainly welcome to do so.

Personally it pleases me to hunt with my 1920 rifle, just as it pleases me to hunt with my Remington-Lee sporter in .30-40 Krag or my 1903 Mannlicher in 6.5x54. I do wish I could find a nice Lee Speed at a reasonable price.

[Mike Irwin]

Yet theres no evidence I've ever found that indicates that Savage made any overtures for military contracts with what became the model 20, or even intended to.

Just as theres no indication that Winchester tried to shop around for military contracts with what became the Model 51, which was also in development during WWI.

That's all I'm asking, Dave, whether there is actual evidence and not just conjecture.

A patent date on the barrel is hardly proof of military intent.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Dave Anderson]

"A patent date on the barrel is hardly proof of military intent." Talk about a non sequitor. It is proof the Savage action which evolved into the model 1920 was designed early in WW I, not after the war as earlier messages imply. Did I really have to explain that?

A basic debating principle is both sides operate under the same rules. In an earlier post, Mike, you wrote "Generally it's said that the Model 1920 was the first bolt action to be designed and offered specifically as a sporting rifle." No mention of who said it, when or where. Apparently we are just supposed to accept it as fact.

So following the same rules, "Generally it is said Savage designed a bolt-action rifle in the hopes of making military sales." Although I actually did include a reference to written evidence in the Otteson book, which has a photo of the Savage military version.

But of course that's not good enough. It never will be enough. It's mere conjecture. Why, in 1915 Savage might have been designing a sporting rifle (incorporating Mauser 98 and '03 Springfield features) and chambering it in .303 British for sale to UK big game hunters. Or maybe they were planning ahead for sale to U.S. veterans at a time when the U.S. wasn't even in the war.

The Savage 1920 did achieve several firsts. It was the first commercially made Savage bolt action; the first Mauser-type short action made in the U.S.; the first lightweight bolt action sporter made by a U.S. manufacturer. Quite enough firsts for one rifle.

To return to the statement that started this debate, here it is, word for word:

"The Savage Model 1920 was the first bolt action sporting rifle to be offered to the hunting public by a major arms company. Yup, the first!"

That's the statement, there were no qualifiers included. Just a flat claim that is flat-out wrong and frankly not worthy of debate. Not to mention tedious and boring. Mike, maybe you should just declare victory and close. the thread