Is Win 231 *really* the same as HP38?

Smaug · November 6, 2008, 09:17 AM

I was just perusing some load data for 357. My Lyman book doesn't have data for HP38, just 231.

The Lee book, which has data assembled from the powder mfrs., lists VASTLY different loads for 158 gr. lead bullets for HP38 and 231.

Win 231: 6.2 - 6.7 gr., and 6.7 gr. = 1275 fps @ 42,500 CUP
HP38: 3.4 - 5.0 gr., and 5.0 gr. = 1109 fps @ 23,900 CUP

Is this a typo, or are they really not the same? The HP38 seems like a hot 38 Special load, where the 231 seems like a magnum load.

The 38 Special data in the same book has 231 data, but no HP38 data:
3.1 - 3.7 gr., 3.7 gr = 834 gps @ 14,600 CUP.

I really like the first part of this book, and the references in the back for the Lee Dippers and Auto Disks, but the data section pretty hokey. There are several spots where the max & min loads are the same.

Like someone took the max from the powder mfr. and filled it in both spots in the table.

As a side note, I have the Lee, Lyman, and Hodgdon load data. What other books have you all found to be good data references? (I shoot mostly handgun)

Jim Watson · November 6, 2008, 09:41 AM

I have seen such stuff, too. But if you go to the Hodgdon site (they are the distributors for Winchester powder now) you will see that they show EXACTLY the same loads for 231 and HP38, right down to the fps and CUP.

Your first pair is probably a case of one source showing true magnum loads (not a great idea with a fast powder like 231) and the other showing reduced loads because they don't want anybody mad at them for recommending a hot load that will lead their barrels with cheap bulk bullets.

Lee's "never exceed" loads are the maximum loads from the powder companies at the time they assembled the book. Their start loads are the next lightest or same Disk measure hole. So if there is a Disk right at the top recommended load, that is where Lee would have you start out.

Al Norris · November 6, 2008, 10:05 AM

Jim has it. HP-38 = W231. Just like H110 = W296.

If you pick up the Speer and Hornady load books, you will see yet more differences.

November 6, 2008, 09:17 AM	#1
Smaug Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 3,210	*Is Win 231 really* the same as HP38?** I was just perusing some load data for 357. My Lyman book doesn't have data for HP38, just 231. The Lee book, which has data assembled from the powder mfrs., lists VASTLY different loads for 158 gr. lead bullets for HP38 and 231. Win 231: 6.2 - 6.7 gr., and 6.7 gr. = 1275 fps @ 42,500 CUP HP38: 3.4 - 5.0 gr., and 5.0 gr. = 1109 fps @ 23,900 CUP Is this a typo, or are they really not the same? The HP38 seems like a hot 38 Special load, where the 231 seems like a magnum load. The 38 Special data in the same book has 231 data, but no HP38 data: 3.1 - 3.7 gr., 3.7 gr = 834 gps @ 14,600 CUP. I really like the first part of this book, and the references in the back for the Lee Dippers and Auto Disks, but the data section pretty hokey. There are several spots where the max & min loads are the same. Like someone took the max from the powder mfr. and filled it in both spots in the table. As a side note, I have the Lee, Lyman, and Hodgdon load data. What other books have you all found to be good data references? (I shoot mostly handgun) __________________ -Jeremy "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer

November 6, 2008, 09:41 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I have seen such stuff, too. But if you go to the Hodgdon site (they are the distributors for Winchester powder now) you will see that they show EXACTLY the same loads for 231 and HP38, right down to the fps and CUP. Your first pair is probably a case of one source showing true magnum loads (not a great idea with a fast powder like 231) and the other showing reduced loads because they don't want anybody mad at them for recommending a hot load that will lead their barrels with cheap bulk bullets. Lee's "never exceed" loads are the maximum loads from the powder companies at the time they assembled the book. Their start loads are the next lightest or same Disk measure hole. So if there is a Disk right at the top recommended load, that is where Lee would have you start out.

November 6, 2008, 10:05 AM	#3
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Jim has it. HP-38 = W231. Just like H110 = W296. If you pick up the Speer and Hornady load books, you will see yet more differences.