Help me ID my 1916 Spandau

mrfix71 · May 26, 2007, 08:06 AM

I bought this interesting looking mauser rifle and would like to know more bout the history. It does not look like Bubba chopped it down but the metal has been painted black. It looks original, but some of the markings are obscured by the paint. Some of the markings I could not find in Terrence Lapin's book on Mauser markings. I do not plan on shooting my relics like this, but truely want to preserve their history.

This is my first posting. I am trying to upload some photos, so hopefully I have done it correctly.

rufe snow · May 26, 2007, 11:18 AM

Without close up pictures of the markings? My 2¢, from your photo is that it HAS been cut down by bubba and the stock has been refinished. More photos, preferably close-ups are needed.

My reference, notes that Spandau only made G 98 rifles ( 29+" barrels ). Between 1900 + 1918.

Scorch · May 26, 2007, 06:59 PM

The long stock is a giveaway. This was originally a Gewehr 98 Standard Modell, not a K98. The barrel has been cut down and the front sight is not original. Note that the rifle has no bayonet lug or cleaning rod. Also, the bolt handle on WWI Mausers was not bent.

mrfix71 · May 26, 2007, 07:31 PM

Thanks for the quick response. To help anyone identify the assumed swapped front sight, there is a imperial letter M with a crown on top on the front of the sight base. Also the bolt handle has an eagle that looks like the 2nd Reich. These seem to be pre-WW2. If the barrel is cut down, someone did some fancy machining to get the inner sleeve that goes under the front barrel band. My thought was this rifle was either a cavalry rifle or maybe assembled from older rifles as the allies were entering Germany.

Thanks again for everyone's info.

mrfix71 · May 26, 2007, 07:34 PM

Where are other reference material so I can possibly be as informed about my mauser collection. I have 2 books regarded as the most recommended, but there seems to be so much more info out there.

Scorch · May 26, 2007, 07:46 PM

There is an excellent book called "Mauser Rifles". Don't know the author.

**Mike Irwin** · May 27, 2007, 10:17 AM

The stock, with the short narrow finger cut looks like what would be found on the 98a or 89b.

I THINK that the 98b was the first one to have the take down disk in the stock, and the time frame and bent bolt handle would be right for a 98b.

However, the rear and front barrel bands aren't anything I'm familiar with.

rufe snow · May 27, 2007, 11:20 AM

If your so sure that your rifle is the real McCoy? Get hold of a copy of Robert Ball's book, "Mauser Military Rifles of the World". It's now in it's 4th Edition and considered the bible for Mauser Military rifle collectors. Dollars to donuts, your not going to find a rifle like yours in it.

**Mike Irwin** · May 27, 2007, 02:00 PM

Is it my imagination, or does that thing look more than a bit like a Model 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine?

I think you need to clean off some of the black paint and see if you have an Argentine crest on it.

Some Argentine Model 1909 carbines did not have bayonet lugs.

rufe snow · May 27, 2007, 03:21 PM

No offense Irwin! I have yet to run across a 1909 Argentine, with a receiver marked Spandau & dated 1916.

**Mike Irwin** · May 27, 2007, 06:14 PM

Yeah, I know, the German made 1909s should all have been made by DWM.

But unless someone is a pretty incredible gunsmith, that nose cap and barrel band look to be factory to me.

**Mike Irwin** · May 27, 2007, 06:18 PM

Just found this on this forum...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...icial%26sa%3DN

"By the end of 1916 several wartime modifications had took place. A washer for protecting the firing pin whilst stripping the bolt was put into the butt, a grasping groove was put into the forend, only one lock-screw position instead of three was provided, finishing began to decline, cheaper woods, along with accelerated seasoning processes were introduced and some stocks had the lower butt dovetailed on from a seperate piece, so inferior stcok blanks could be used. Many were destroyed after the war. The few the Reichswher did keep had lange sights swapped for simple tangent leaf types ( now with minimum 100m sighting range ), the bolt handles turned down, their barrel bands revised and their designation changed to Karabiner 98b."

I wonder if there might be any answers there...

**Mike Irwin** · May 27, 2007, 06:21 PM

And this gun looks VERY similar...

That's the Argentinian 1909 Cavalry Carbine...

mrfix71 · May 27, 2007, 08:57 PM

I have looked at the Argentine mausers but the muzzle of this Spandau looks different. Thankfully someone else agrees that the muzzle band on my Spandau looks factory. Does the eagle stamp denote the 2nd reich? It looks very similar according to my references, but not exactly. There does seem to be a plug filling the hole where the cleaning rod is and the front sight looks similar to my unaltered GEW98. Would it be wise to strip off the black paint or leave it on? What about restoring the proper finish for the stock. Naturally, I want to retain historical values to my mausers.

rufe snow · May 27, 2007, 10:57 PM

Unless you can substantiate some how, that your rifle isn't just a sporterized 98B? I don't see how it makes any difference what you do to it. Don't believe it will have any historical value, one way or another if you leave it in it's present condition, and/or refinish the stock/metal.

deadin · May 29, 2007, 09:40 AM

I think the plugged cleaning rod hole in the front of the stock says "conversion". As to who did it....... ??????

dutchy · May 31, 2007, 04:09 AM

EWB on the stock might mean Einwohnerwehr Bayern. (Homeguard Bavaria)
Given the fact that bavaria is mountainous and this rifle was cut down to "Stutzen Style" it might be possible that this is a post war local daptation to suit specific bavarian needs.

Hope it helped

mrfix71 · June 5, 2007, 05:19 AM

Is the pale color of the stock a refinish giveaway? I have not seen another rifle that color that is from the pre to post WW2 era. Also, if the stock and the action/barrel can be identified separate then maybe my curiosity can be cured.

What is the best way to "restore" the stain on the stock? Rubbed oil seems to be likely. If most of you experts agree it would be a good idea, then I will remove the black paint from the metal to expose the markings on the reciever/barrel.

May 26, 2007, 11:18 AM	#2
rufe snow Junior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Posts: 12	Without close up pictures of the markings? My 2¢, from your photo is that it HAS been cut down by bubba and the stock has been refinished. More photos, preferably close-ups are needed. My reference, notes that Spandau only made G 98 rifles ( 29+" barrels ). Between 1900 + 1918. Last edited by rufe snow; May 26, 2007 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Additional Information.

May 26, 2007, 06:59 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The long stock is a giveaway. This was originally a Gewehr 98 Standard Modell, not a K98. The barrel has been cut down and the front sight is not original. Note that the rifle has no bayonet lug or cleaning rod. Also, the bolt handle on WWI Mausers was not bent. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

May 26, 2007, 07:34 PM	#5
mrfix71 Junior Member Join Date: May 26, 2007 Posts: 5	Other Reference Material Where are other reference material so I can possibly be as informed about my mauser collection. I have 2 books regarded as the most recommended, but there seems to be so much more info out there.

May 26, 2007, 07:46 PM	#6
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	There is an excellent book called "Mauser Rifles". Don't know the author. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

May 27, 2007, 10:17 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	The stock, with the short narrow finger cut looks like what would be found on the 98a or 89b. I THINK that the 98b was the first one to have the take down disk in the stock, and the time frame and bent bolt handle would be right for a 98b. However, the rear and front barrel bands aren't anything I'm familiar with. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 27, 2007, 11:20 AM	#8
rufe snow Junior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Posts: 12	If your so sure that your rifle is the real McCoy? Get hold of a copy of Robert Ball's book, "Mauser Military Rifles of the World". It's now in it's 4th Edition and considered the bible for Mauser Military rifle collectors. Dollars to donuts, your not going to find a rifle like yours in it.

May 27, 2007, 02:00 PM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Is it my imagination, or does that thing look more than a bit like a Model 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine? I think you need to clean off some of the black paint and see if you have an Argentine crest on it. Some Argentine Model 1909 carbines did not have bayonet lugs. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 27, 2007, 03:21 PM	#10
rufe snow Junior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Posts: 12	No offense Irwin! I have yet to run across a 1909 Argentine, with a receiver marked Spandau & dated 1916.

May 27, 2007, 06:14 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Yeah, I know, the German made 1909s should all have been made by DWM. But unless someone is a pretty incredible gunsmith, that nose cap and barrel band look to be factory to me. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 27, 2007, 06:18 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Just found this on this forum... http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...icial%26sa%3DN "By the end of 1916 several wartime modifications had took place. A washer for protecting the firing pin whilst stripping the bolt was put into the butt, a grasping groove was put into the forend, only one lock-screw position instead of three was provided, finishing began to decline, cheaper woods, along with accelerated seasoning processes were introduced and some stocks had the lower butt dovetailed on from a seperate piece, so inferior stcok blanks could be used. Many were destroyed after the war. The few the Reichswher did keep had lange sights swapped for simple tangent leaf types ( now with minimum 100m sighting range ), the bolt handles turned down, their barrel bands revised and their designation changed to Karabiner 98b." I wonder if there might be any answers there... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 27, 2007, 06:21 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	And this gun looks VERY similar... That's the Argentinian 1909 Cavalry Carbine... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 27, 2007, 08:57 PM	#14
mrfix71 Junior Member Join Date: May 26, 2007 Posts: 5	Thanks for all of the replies I have looked at the Argentine mausers but the muzzle of this Spandau looks different. Thankfully someone else agrees that the muzzle band on my Spandau looks factory. Does the eagle stamp denote the 2nd reich? It looks very similar according to my references, but not exactly. There does seem to be a plug filling the hole where the cleaning rod is and the front sight looks similar to my unaltered GEW98. Would it be wise to strip off the black paint or leave it on? What about restoring the proper finish for the stock. Naturally, I want to retain historical values to my mausers.

May 27, 2007, 10:57 PM	#15
rufe snow Junior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Posts: 12	Unless you can substantiate some how, that your rifle isn't just a sporterized 98B? I don't see how it makes any difference what you do to it. Don't believe it will have any historical value, one way or another if you leave it in it's present condition, and/or refinish the stock/metal.

May 29, 2007, 09:40 AM	#16
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	I think the plugged cleaning rod hole in the front of the stock says "conversion". As to who did it....... ??????

May 31, 2007, 04:09 AM	#17
dutchy Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 199	ewb EWB on the stock might mean Einwohnerwehr Bayern. (Homeguard Bavaria) Given the fact that bavaria is mountainous and this rifle was cut down to "Stutzen Style" it might be possible that this is a post war local daptation to suit specific bavarian needs. Hope it helped

June 5, 2007, 05:19 AM	#18
mrfix71 Junior Member Join Date: May 26, 2007 Posts: 5	Stock and Reciever separate Is the pale color of the stock a refinish giveaway? I have not seen another rifle that color that is from the pre to post WW2 era. Also, if the stock and the action/barrel can be identified separate then maybe my curiosity can be cured. What is the best way to "restore" the stain on the stock? Rubbed oil seems to be likely. If most of you experts agree it would be a good idea, then I will remove the black paint from the metal to expose the markings on the reciever/barrel.