Info needed about the .454 Casull

[cdoc42]

I've been shooting my Freedom Arms .454 Casull since the mid-eighties, as far as I can recall. Recent treads on the Firing Line discussed forcing cone damage if less than heavy enough jackets are used in revolvers such as the .454, which caused me to have a closer look at my loads.

I have loaded the following bullets and fired the number accompanying the recipes below, without any problems. I'm concerned this might qualify for reckless abandon should I unfortunately experience these loads are too hot for the bullets used.

Hornady 300gr XTP H110 30.0gr Book data= 1716 fps (30 fired)
Sierra JSP 300gr - same recipe, but I molycoated the bullets (12 fired)
Speer 300gr - same recipe, molycoated (14 fired)

This is from the Hodgdon site, and the load is for a FA JFP (Freedom Arms JFP), which I understand is a heavier jacketed bullet.

I contacted Hornady and quickly received a reply that advised the XTP (not "Mag")" "terminal velocity is 0800 to 1600 fps so the load data range for these bullets would be starting to mid-range data but don't exceed that."

Unfortunately I do not have a Hornady manual and neither Hodgdon or Lyman manuals provide the information that would apply to the recommendation.

I also have a bucket of hard cast bullets in 300gr, obtained from the family of a deceased reloader, who passed them onto me along with the load he used, which just happened to be 30.5gr of 296. I have loaded and fired these with 30gr of H110 without a problem, but I now begin to question that wisdom. The only load I could find -which doesn't even come close to this one - is also in the Hodgdon site for a 300gr "CPB LFN GC: bullet. I assume this is Lead Flat Nose Gas Check,,,,but what is "CPB?"

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?

[shootniron]

Those cast bullets have not hurt your forcing cone. Do these bullets have a gas check?

IF there is erosion in your forcing cone, it will be readily apparent.

[BBarn]

Published 454 Casull Maximums:

Hornady 300gr. XTP MAG
31.4gr. H110 1600fps.

No loads for Hornady 300gr. Non-MAG bullet in the Casull.

Hornady 300gr. XTP NON-MAG 45COLT Ruger ONLY
21.7gr. W296 1300fps.


Speer 300gr. Soft Point
28.0gr. W296 1426fps. (Limited by bullet construction)

Speer 300gr. Gold Dot or Deep Curl (#3974)
31.0gr. W296 1587fps.


Sierra 300gr. JSP
29.2gr. H110 1550fps.
Sierra recommends the velocity of this bullet be kept to no more than 1550fps.


300gr. SAECO Cast
27.5gr. H110 1483fps.


I believe your concerns about bullet selection for the Casull are well founded. There are warnings scattered about in the bullet maker's data books about the need for stoutly constructed bullets at top Casull velocities.

I'd say you should back off on the Sierra load. The Hornady and Speer loads are probably OK if the correct 300gr. bullet was used. (Both make 300gr. bullets suitable for the Casull, as well as 300gr. bullets unsuitable for full power Casull loads).

The cast bullet load is also above the Lyman data I saw. (All the Lyman cast data used gas checked bullets). CPB might stand for Cast Performance Bullets Company (Bullet Maker).


Edit: From the Freedom Arms 454 Casull reloading data page:

Also another important fact is, that the faster the velocity and the softer the bullet, the quicker the forcing cone of the barrel will wear out.
Never exceed any manufacturer's recommendations for velocity maximums!

[cdoc42]

Shootniron, no there is no gas check.

BBarn, thanks for the extensive data - that's what I needed. It's also comforting to see the velocities on Speer and Sierra are lower than I would have thought, and it might b my load was o.k. just because I moly'd the bullets which would have decreased the velocity. I have a chronograph but I spend more time checking rifle loads - got to change that habit!

[cdoc42]

I'm back for another brain storming session, if anyone cares to opine. My communication with Hornady advised the non-mag 300gr .45Cal XTP bullet has a terminal velocity range of 800 to 1600fps and one should start at 800 and do not exceed mid-range in the .454, which I calculate is 1200fps. The recipe offered by BBarn for the Ruger .45 Colt is very close to that using W296 which I understand is the same powder as H110. If I'm not mistaken, under-charging with H110/296 is problematic because of the empty space left in the case presents a detonation threat. Does anyone know what percentage of space that is? For example,

22gr of H110 in a .45 Colt occupies 53.6% of the case. In a .454 case, 22 gr occupies 51.7%. The 300gr Hornady XTP, seated to the first cannelure, occupies .390" of case space. The .454 Freedom Arms case has 1.279" of space, so the UNoccupied case space with a 300gr XTP and 22gr of H110 is o.227" or 17.7% of the space. Is that a safe percentage? Should I instead search for a bulkier powder that occupies more space but still keeps the velocity to 1200fps?

[BBarn]

Speer lists some loads for their 300gr. soft point that are also limited to less than full power Casull levels.

One is a starting load of 26.0gr. of 296 for about 1300fps (7.5" bbl). This sounds close to what you are looking for. However I wouldn't reduce below that with 296. If you want a little less velocity, you should probably look at another powder like 2400 or Accurate #9.

I strongly suggest picking up Speer's Reloading Manual #14. It contains some good info and a good variety of loads for the Casull.

Edit:. Yes, Hodgdon H110 and 296 are the same powder.

[Old 454]

I load my 454 casull with 240 grain xtp mags and 38.2 gr of h110.

Have not shed any jackets and no erosion on the forcing cone.

And man they are fun to shoot

[buck460XVR]

Bob Baker from Freedom Arms has serious concerns over the use of Lil' Gun powder when used in .454 due to excessive forcing cone erosion he has seen from guns sent in. I've also heard of the same issues when used in .460 S&W. For that reason I don't use Lil' Gun in any of my revolvers anymore.

[the possum]

If I'm not mistaken, under-charging with H110/296 is problematic because of the empty space left in the case presents a detonation threat.

No, that's a whole different issue. The reason you shouldn't under-charge a .454 with H110/W296 is because this ball powder needs pressure to burn properly. If ya go too low, it won't burn at all, and you'll have a bullet stuck in yer barrel. Which can be dangerous if you're shooting in a big hurry & working on autopilot- ya might already be pulling the trigger again before your brain has processed the funny sound/recoil from the previous round.

The "detonation" legend was with very tiny charges of powder (like 1 or 2 grains) in .38 special. But no amount of lab testing (including trying to set it off with blasting caps!) has ever been able to reproduce this "detonation" phenomenon, so the ballisticians still tend to think those stories are due to accidentally overcharged cases.

For what it's worth, I've been using Hornady 250 XTP's (the standard bullets; not the "magnum" version) for years with W296 at around 1675 fps. I have not noticed any issues, but have not shot thousands of 'em, either. Never seen one come apart at this velocity, and in fact they don't expand as much as I was expecting. I once called Freedom Arms to ask about their carbide forcing cone option, but they said not to bother unless I planned to shoot over 10,000 heavy loads per year.

[cdoc42]

Thanks everyone; I'll take these recommendations to heart and pursue them. BTW, shortly after I made the post above I found a reference that stated never load H110 (and I assume W296)at less than 90% of the case volume!!!!

What I find frustrating is I've been shooting high power loads in my .454 since the 1980's (Freedom Arms Model 83) with Speer, Sierra, Hornady and hard cast bullets without any obvious problems. Then I start reading these cautions which submerges my confidence and off I go on these scouting trips. I swear when you get older you scare more easily and get cautious quicker.

[disseminator]

I'm back for another brain storming session, if anyone cares to opine. My communication with Hornady advised the non-mag 300gr .45Cal XTP bullet has a terminal velocity range of 800 to 1600fps and one should start at 800 and do not exceed mid-range in the .454, which I calculate is 1200fps.

What Hornady was saying is that the 300 XTP is designed for a maximum velocity of 1600 fps and that a middle of the road 454 load would get you to 1600 fps.

Better to just use the XTP-MAG bullets and then you can just stick to using w296 and load to maximum if that is what you desire. Speer also has a nice 300g bullet made for the Casull and the 460 Mag.

The recipe offered by BBarn for the Ruger .45 Colt is very close to that using W296 which I understand is the same powder as H110. If I'm not mistaken, under-charging with H110/296 is problematic because of the empty space left in the case presents a detonation threat. Does anyone know what percentage of space that is?

That is correct, do not reduce loads with the H110/w296.

For example, 22gr of H110 in a .45 Colt occupies 53.6% of the case. In a .454 case, 22 gr occupies 51.7%. The 300gr Hornady XTP, seated to the first cannelure, occupies .390" of case space. The .454 Freedom Arms case has 1.279" of space, so the UNoccupied case space with a 300gr XTP and 22gr of H110 is o.227" or 17.7% of the space. Is that a safe percentage? Should I instead search for a bulkier powder that occupies more space but still keeps the velocity to 1200fps?

If reduced velocities are what you are after, you should select a more suitable powder. There are several that are appropriate and will keep the velocities in check for lighter constructed bullets.

Take care of that revolver, she's a classic!

[cdoc42]

Thanks for your thoughts, disseminator, you can be certain they will not go unappreciated or not put to good use!

[disseminator]

No problem, stay safe.

[Sevens]

I'm late to this conversation. I think there is at least a slight chance that some cautions I have written in another thread may relate to this one. I came across this subject in direct e-mail conversation with ballisticians at Alliant when I had asked questions about using light 71 grain FMJ .32 ACP slugs in the high-pressure and highly capable .327 Federal Magnum.

To be clear, the issue with a lightly constructed bullet in an extremely harsh, high pressure cartridge (.327, .454, .460 & .500 Mag) is the elliptical effect, distortion of the bullet under high pressure, outside the design scope of the slug when it jumps from cylinder to forcing cone. The tech at Alliant described it as a bullet going "out of round" and slamming the forcing cone out of shape.

The "Lil'Gun eats forcing cones" is absolutely real, but the warnings to not use lightly constructed bullets in these hardcore magnum revolver rounds is an entirely separate issue.

I still run the little pea-sized .32 ACP slug in my .327 Federal, but I do it at 1000-1100 fps, not the 1,800 that I could probably get to with 45k psi worth of "huevos" available to do it. In .460 Mag, the Hornady 240gr XTP-Mag is the only bullet I use.

My only other thought is...
Freedom Arms? Those guys just aren't like most any other gun maker. They live in the real world and they take a lot of pride in what they do. They also (unlike most other gun makers) know and even encourage their guns to be owned, used and loved by HANDLOADERS. If you have a problem or even simply a concern, a call or e-mail to Freedom should be the finest tool in your kit.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

Thanks everyone; I'll take these recommendations to heart and pursue them. BTW, shortly after I made the post above I found a reference that stated never load H110 (and I assume W296)at less than 90% of the case volume!!!!

Follow published load recipes and you won't have any problems.....period. As for the 90% thing, just as important as the correct powder charge with H110/W296 is a good heavy crimp to aid in ignition. While in a large case like .454, magnum primers are not needed, I use 'em anyway. They give me better consistency than standard primers.

Lots of folk like to make it seem that H110/W296 is a dangerous powder, but in reality it's just the opposite. It very safe when used as directed.....just like any other powder. It doesn't "detonate", it just has very narrow parameters. When used within those parameters, it's very safe and performs better than most other magnum handgun powders. It's when folks go outside those parameters they have issues. As others have said, it's not a powder for powder puff type loads....there are many other powders out there much more suitable. But if you want your .454 to shoot like a .454, you ain't gonna find a better powder than H110/W296.

[Unclenick]

Detonation is something that doesn't happen with fast powders until they get down in the range of 10% fill or less. With slow powders it is generally the same, though, in addition, there is a pressure spike phenomenon that can occur in the 30-40% fill range due to ignition area being high. I recently got a reprint CD from Wolfe Publishing on the subject of pressure, and the late Dr. Frank Brownell, who did the DuPont-funded studies of pressure at the U of M pointed out that while it was way out on the long skewed high pressure tail of the probability curve (happens only rarely), there were occasions when double or triple pressure peaks would occur in such loads. Rare, but there.

Hornady makes a .452 FTX in 250 grains that will handle the higher velocities just fine. The only problem is it lacks a crimp cannelure, so the Lee Collet Style crimp die would need to be used to keep them their cases in a revolver.