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Old May 19, 2020, 03:31 PM   #1
simonrichter
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M17 and hollowpoint ammo

It just occured to me that together with the M17, the Army is (also) issuing hollowpoint ammo instead of exclusively fmj (please correct me if I was mistaken).

Just wondered what's the rationale behind this decision. Is it an additional option for military LE units or intended for frontline troops as well? It appears to be exactly the opposite idea of what the 5.7 wanted to achieve...
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Old May 20, 2020, 12:34 AM   #2
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From what I've read online, yes, it is mostly for LE units. Soft-armored Soviet hordes are not the anticipated threat, so JHP makes sense.
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Old May 20, 2020, 06:26 AM   #3
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But frontline issue is standard FMJ, not some kind of hardened core AP stuff like the Russians use?
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Old May 25, 2020, 09:29 AM   #4
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I have wondered when visiting Arlington, if the sentry(s) patrolling were issued FMJ or
mmore suitabl ammo for minimizing 'pass-thru" and increasing the danger zone??

Also to preclude stealing ammo off a sentry??

Remember of oboma tried to curtail the green tip 62gr ammo
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Old May 25, 2020, 11:46 AM   #5
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The sentrys at Arlington and around the capitol don't look like they want to entertain questions. I was looking at a guy carrying an M4 and wondering how many times someone has asked him, "Is that a real gun?" or "Is that gun loaded?" Seemed to be two of the most common questions I was asked when I was LE.
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Old May 25, 2020, 01:33 PM   #6
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Hollow point ammo is still banned by the Geneva Convention for use in combat. Only fmj is allowed up to and including 50 cal as it's assumed that larger caliber projectiles are intended for targets other than human.
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Old May 25, 2020, 01:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
COSteve Hollow point ammo is still banned by the Geneva Convention for use in combat....
Myth.

The Hague Convention of 1899 (IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations.

The US did not ratify this section.

So............nothing prevents the US militarily from issuing hollow points.
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Old May 25, 2020, 04:13 PM   #8
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The Geneva Convention dealt with treatment of prisoners of war. The US military has always had the option to use HP ammo if they chose. But generally speaking prefer FMJ to get better barrier penetration.
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Old May 25, 2020, 10:59 PM   #9
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So............nothing prevents the US militarily from issuing hollow points.
Actually, there is, but I can't point you to a specific document.

There is a long standing and established policy that even though the US was not a signatory to the treaty, we would abide by its restrictions.

Which is why up until recently our wars have been fought with FMJ ammo. The fact that FMJ feeds more reliably than anything else doesn't hurt, either.

There is an "out" or some would say a loophole, in the treaties, one which we can, and ARE following, which allows us to use hollow point/expanding ammo.

And that "loophole" is that the treaty provisions ONLY apply to signatory member nations armed forces. In other words, the uniformed military of a nation state that signed the treaty.

Since we are not fighting the army of any nation now, let alone any signatory to the Hague or Geneva convention the treaty simply doesn't apply. The terrorists, jihadists, and troops of various local warlords of every stripe, are not covered under the treaties.

SO, we can shoot them with hollowpoints, IF we wish, and not be violating international law or treaty convention.
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Old May 26, 2020, 02:54 PM   #10
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Somebody that REALLY knows this stuff can correct me on this but I believe our (USA) snipers use hollow point rifle ammo for the added accuracy but this ammo doesn't mushroom like normal hollow points...here's an explanation from Quora: (not a source I'm particularly fond of but it came up on a Google search and agrees with what I remember)

https://www.quora.com/What-kind-of-b...per-rifles-use

Quote:
Finally, the round which snipers of the present day commonly use (at least in NATO countries) is a Full Metal Jacket, Boat Tailed, Hollow Point, which combines the aerodynamic properties of the boat-tailed round with yet another design intended to increase the round’s ballistic properties:---This hollow cavity is not to be confused with the hollow point style used in hunting rounds- the hollow in the military ammunition is so small that the bullet does not ‘mushroom’, and thus does not violate the Hague convention ban on expanding bullets.
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Old May 26, 2020, 04:44 PM   #11
dogtown tom
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Quote:
44 AMP
Quote:
Quote:
So............nothing prevents the US militarily from issuing hollow points.
Actually, there is, but I can't point you to a specific document.
Huh?
There is or there isn't. If there WAS something that prevented the US military from using hollow points it would still be in effect.






Quote:
There is a long standing and established policy that even though the US was not a signatory to the treaty, we would abide by its restrictions.
Virtually no one bothered to abide by the restrictions of the Hague.


Quote:
Which is why up until recently our wars have been fought with FMJ ammo. The fact that FMJ feeds more reliably than anything else doesn't hurt, either.
Be real, hollowpoint technology has come quite a ways since 1899. Hollowpoint handgun ammunition didn't become popular until the '70's. As long as the US military was issuing the .45acp there was no need for hollowpoints. Once the military and LE community started issuing 9x19 the increased performance of hollowpoints was obvious.


Quote:
There is an "out" or some would say a loophole, in the treaties, one which we can, and ARE following, which allows us to use hollow point/expanding ammo.
"Loophole'? Oh good grief. It not an out. Its not a loophole. It's not a part of the treaty that the US ratified. Plain and simple.


Quote:
And that "loophole" is that the treaty provisions ONLY apply to signatory member nations armed forces. In other words, the uniformed military of a nation state that signed the treaty.
Irrelevent to the US.

Quote:
Since we are not fighting the army of any nation now, let alone any signatory to the Hague or Geneva convention the treaty simply doesn't apply.
Being that your loophole was never signed or ratified by the US its irrelevant who we are fighting.......it doesn't apply.


Quote:
The terrorists, jihadists, and troops of various local warlords of every stripe, are not covered under the treaties.
As far as hollow points neither are we.




Quote:
SO, we can shoot them with hollowpoints, IF we wish, and not be violating international law or treaty convention.
Yeah.....that's what I wrote above.
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Last edited by dogtown tom; May 26, 2020 at 04:50 PM.
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Old May 28, 2020, 09:33 PM   #12
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American Rifleman was following the adoption of the M17 and the ammo for it (which was a part of the bid) and in the Keefe report reported on it regularly:

Quote:
The ammunition accompanying the M17 includes the M1152 FMJ and the M1153 Special Purpose loads... the uses for the M1152 and M1153 are given as “The Ball cartridge is intended for use against enemy personnel, for training, and for force protection. The JHP cartridge is required for use in situations where limited over-penetration of targets is necessary to reduce collateral damage.” In case you didn’t catch it, “Special Purpose” equals “jacketed hollow point.”

The Army’s lawyers determined that the use of hollow points by troops does not violate the Hague Convention of 1899. Army Col. Brian Stehle, who was the head of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, was quoted in a military.com article, “We have a law of war determination that stated that this type of ammunition is usable.” Other “Special Purpose” rounds, including open tip match (OTM) and .45 JHPs have already been used by Special Operations troops for some time
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...m-luger-loads/

The U.S. military has been using JHP ammo for a good many years especially with special forces troops. In both 45 acp and 9mm.

JHP ammo has been used in rifle ammo as well.

It's useful to know that by the time the Hague Convention 1899 was signed the only expanding bullets around for rifle rounds were jacketed lead soft points, that is semi jacketed bullets with exposed lead points. The famous British Dum-Dum should come to mind. At the time the Conventions were signed (recall the U.S. did not sign) those bullets were obsolete.

The Germans had a few years earlier invented the fmj Spitzer bullets with pointed bullets that traveled further and faster and were intended for use with smokeless powders. That type bullet would be the future of military ammo for decades.

It's also been mentioned that the treaty was only applicable to nations fighting nations where they were both signatories. They did not apply to uprisings or revolutions. That was awful handy for colonial and imperialist powers. So the U.S. could invade Afghanistan and fight the Taliban for over a decade and used what ammo it thought best. The Taliban is not a government.

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Old May 28, 2020, 09:46 PM   #13
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A bit more on that...

Quote:
During the Hague Convention of 1899, the British delegation attempted to justify the use of the dumdum bullet by pointing to its utility when putting down colonial unrest. Barbara Tuchman writes that, "Developed by the British to stop the rush of fanatical tribesman, the bullets were vigorously defended by Sir John Ardagh against the heated attack of all except the American military delegate, Captain Crozier, whose country was about to make use of them in the Philippines. In warfare against savages, Ardagh explained to an absorbed audience, 'men penetrated through and through several times by our latest pattern of small calibre projectiles, which make small clean holes,' were nevertheless able to rush on and come to close quarters. Some means had to be found to stop them. 'The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged. Your fanatical barbarian, similarly wounded, continues to rush on, spear or sword in hand; and before you have the time to represent to him that his conduct is in flagrant violation of the understanding relative to the proper course for the wounded man to follow—he may have cut off your head.'"[20] However, the rest of the delegates at the Hague Convention 1899 did not accept this justification and voted 22–2 to prohibit the future use of the dumdum bullet.
Quote:
The text of the declaration states, "The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them"
The "savages" mentioned above whther in India, South African Affrikans or the Philippines were not covered by the Hague agreement.

Quote:
Until relatively recently, the prohibition on the use of expanding bullets was applicable only to international armed conflicts between the countries that have signed it. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross's customary international law study, customary international law now prohibits their use in any armed conflicts.[22][23] This has been disputed by the United States, which maintains that the use of expanding bullets can be legal when there is a clear military necessity.[23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

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