.32acp vs. 22lr muzzle energy

simonrichter · May 12, 2020, 12:04 PM

I always assumed that .22lr out of a pistol is somewhat superior only to .25acp. Now, just out of general curiosity, I checked the data just to see that there is actually not soo much difference. You can squeeze roughly 110 ft lbs out of a 5" .22lr, the same a 3" .32acp will average. Did I get something wrong there or do you really need some 2" more to achieve the power of say a Kel Tec P32 with a (thus somewhat larger) .22lr?
Due to the smaller diameter, penetration must even be better...

TruthTellers · May 12, 2020, 12:42 PM

.22 LR penetration is not going to be as good as .32 ACP, the heavier bullet is the difference, even if it is 45% larger in diameter. Looking at the Lucky Gunner tests, the .22 LR from a 4" barrel gets about 15 inches consistently with a 4 inch barrel, while .32 ACP gets 17 inches with just a 3 inch barrel, well over 20 inches with a 4 inch barrel.

Also, at longer distances the .32 will hold it's energy better than .22 will from a handgun, that means better penetration and not just that, but straight penetration. The biggest problem with .22 it's so light it curves in a medium easily so where you hit a target, it may take a dive and exit out their side or some other wacky move.

Does that mean .22 is useless for defense? No, it's just not superior to .32 ACP. .25 ACP... it probably is solely because it's so much less expensive that people can shoot their gun a lot more and become very proficient with it.

Metric · May 12, 2020, 12:43 PM

.22 velocity does drop off pretty fast at short barrel length: http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

Using CCI Velocitor, you can probably expect about 1000 fps out of a 3" barrel, and there are some .32 acp loads that will exceed that velocity with a heavier bullet (e.g. the underwood xtreme defender +p load).

However, penetration from both is probably just fine. If you put a hole in something really important, caliber doesn't matter too much: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

I do think something like a 5.5" Ruger Mark-series .22, loaded up with CCI Velocitor could be a fearsome weapon, due to sheer speed and accuracy. It just requires the right mindset and skill.

Bill DeShivs · May 12, 2020, 12:43 PM

The .22lr is not superior to the .25 from a 2" barrel.
The .22 lr is primarily a rifle cartridge that needs barrel length to achieve velocity.

ThomasT · May 12, 2020, 12:51 PM

Quote:

The .22lr is not superior to the .25 from a 2" barrel

Yep. I love my 25 auto.

I fired a Hi-Velocity 22lr from a 6" Ruger standard model and got 1090fps. The same load from a rifle showed around 1190fps IIRC. So a closed breech 22lr does pretty good from a longer barreled handgun.

stinkeypete · May 12, 2020, 12:58 PM

Kinetic energy is m*V^2 or m*v*v

comparing against each other we can say that it's proportional to bullet weight times the velocity times the velocity again.

22 LR ... 40 x 1014 x 1014 (4" barrel cci mini mags) = 41 Petes
.32 acp... 65 x 939 x 939 (4" barrel fed hydoShocks) = 57 Petes
so there is more kinetic energy.

Momentum is mass times velocity
22 LR... 40x1014 = 40.5 milliBumps
.32 65x939= 61 milliBumps
so there is more momentum

the hole size is ... pi r squared
22 LR.. 3.14 x .223x.223 = .156 inches squared vs
.32 3.14 x .3125x.3125 = .307 inches squared
assuming the hollow points don't expand, the holes are three times bigger

In terms of cool factors,
.22 ... Mossad Assassins
.32 ...James Bond (for those that actually read the books)

Yeah Buts-
.22 "Yeah but .22 wmr and shooting jello penetration and I read that..."
.32 "Yeah but when I have saved up enough to afford another magazine you'll be sorry! Now be quite while I use these tweezers to load some more ammo."
I think the edge there goes to the center fire round.

Pros:
.22 Low recoil, cheap ammo, quiet, everyone should own at least 3 .22s
.32 Some very attractive well made surplus firearms and super accurate Olympic level target pistols. Recoil is also very low.

Doing the math for .25 caliber is left as an exercise for the student.

Metric · May 12, 2020, 01:16 PM

Israeli Mossad and/or Sky Marshals w/ Beretta 71's (22 LR) > Terrorists w/ AK47:
https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...mossad-22-lrs/

I mean .32 would just be crazy overkill.

jmr40 · May 12, 2020, 02:03 PM

Energy is a poor predictor of how well cartridges perform, so is momentum. Real world they will be closer than many believe. Neither would be my top pick, but I'd lean toward the 32 if choosing. And a big part of that is that while pretty reliable, rimfire ammo is always a little more likely to misfire than centerfire ammo

Onward Allusion · May 12, 2020, 07:17 PM

In order of energy from a 2" barrel - 22LR, 25 ACP, & 32 ACP. For the same number of rounds in a pistol, I'd take a 25 over a 22 and a 32 over a 25.

22LR is a rifle cartridge. A number of years ago, I picked up my first NAA Mini. It had a 1 5/8" barrel. I chrono'd it with about a dozen different cartridges and the average fps was between the high 500's to the low 700's. That translates to a maximum of 50 ft lbs

A 25 ACP from a old Bauer or Colt Vest Pocket will give you somewhere around 70 ft lbs.

A 32 ACP from a Kel Tec P32 will give you 110 to 175 ft lbs depending on ammo.

A lot of crap has been said over the years about 25 ACP, but to this day there hasn't been a 32 or 380 as small as one of those old 25's.

Kreyzhorse · May 12, 2020, 07:22 PM

What he said ^.

And I'd take any one of them over no gun and to be honest, I'm partial to the .25acp and love my Beretta Bobcat in 22lr.

Carmady · May 12, 2020, 09:44 PM

I've heard/read that JB created the .25 to be a center fire cartridge with .22LR ballistics, with the advantage of the .25 being CF reliability.

**44 AMP** · May 12, 2020, 10:11 PM

A large part of that CF reliability is FEEDING. Its not just more reliable ignition than a rimfire. Remember that back around 1900 and for a while after, center fire ignition was not as reliable as it is today.

One of the reasons the .25s and even the .32s are useful is that they nearly always work. FMJ ammo and centerfire ignition are as reliable as it gets.

Often the lead .22 bullet will do more damage than a .25 cal FMJ in a human body, because it flattens, expands and may veer off course.

In my experience, here is no other firearm as temperamental about feeding as a semiauto .22LR pistol. Some will run well on any or everything. Some won't. Some will only run well on one or two brands/types of ammo. Some won't even do that, reliably. If you have one that runs well on something great. But if you don't? Then what??

When talking personal defense, which is better, something that punches an ice pick type hole every single time, or something which might do slightly better now and then, and maybe jam on the next shot?

If a bullet reaches or passes through a vital spot, small differences in energy and diameter don't seem to matter much. If it doesn't having reliable follow up shots is very important. Over all, as a group, semi auto .22s are just not as reliable as centerfires. Individual guns may differ.

TruthTellers · May 13, 2020, 05:20 AM

No .32's may ever have been made as small as some .25's, but I doubt that extra reduction in size ever made a difference.

Personally, I don't trust .22 LR in a small semi auto, the length and heeled bullet is just too much to be reliable for any small semi auto pistol, but .22 Short I would trust more. It's weak, super weak, but at when we're talking muzzle energies of 75 ft/lbs or less, there's not much difference in effect on target other than penetration.

I've said it before and will say it again that the only place I'm ever going to aim for with such small calibers is the head and neck. I can't imagine that it will make much difference if you hit someone in the face if they'll be able to tell it was a .22 Short or a .25 ACP.

The one thing I can do with .22 Short is shoot it a lot more than .25 because of the price of ammo and even tho I reload, I'm never touching .25 ACP.

.32 tho, it's the king of pocket guns. It is the smallest caliber I will ever trust to aim center mass during a fight and while it may not stop someone immediately, it has a lot better chance of doing so than a smaller caliber would.

ChimpMunk20 · May 13, 2020, 07:38 AM

I'd go for the .22LR. The .25 and .32 ACP's aren't much of a cartridge and are a pain to load for.

Dad always advised me to never carry those mini ACP's. He said if you needed it all it would do is make someone mad enough to stick it up your butt and kick the handle off.

ThomasT · May 13, 2020, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Dad always advised me to never carry those mini ACP's. He said if you needed it all it would do is make someone mad enough to stick it up your butt and kick the handle off.

A friend used a 25acp to shoot someone who was trying to rob his gas station. The robber was going to stick the gun up my friends butt and kick the handle off but before he could do so he fell on the floor and died.

tlm225 · May 13, 2020, 10:59 AM

The first murder I responded to was committed with a .25 auto. 1 round centered on the bridge of the nose, DRT. A .22 would probably have had the same effect.

If I had to chose between a .22 or .25 in a small pocket automatic for defensive purposes. I would chose the .25 simply for the reliability alone. I've seen too many pocket sized .22 pistols malfunction compared to a .25.

Carmady · May 13, 2020, 11:41 AM

If I was going to carry a .22 for SD I would want one of these. The 3" would have more velocity, but has the Snag City front sight. The 2" has a ramp sight, but less velocity. That bunch out in Utah should make a modern version; DA with 7-rd cylinder less than 1" in diameter.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867812455

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867481193

Cosmodragoon · May 13, 2020, 06:59 PM

Lucky Gunner covered some of these in their pocket pistol series. You can check out the .25 acp considerations here:

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/i...ense-cartridge

In my limited experience, .25 acp is pretty similar to .22 LR but in a centerfire package. That can have advantages. Generally, I'd prefer .32 acp for defensive use. Of course, I'd prefer .380 to that and 9mm to that but it all depends on size constraints. You need a gun you can carry and you need to be able to use it well. If that means dipping down on the defensive power ladder on occasion, so be it.

May 12, 2020, 12:04 PM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 758	.32acp vs. 22lr muzzle energy I always assumed that .22lr out of a pistol is somewhat superior only to .25acp. Now, just out of general curiosity, I checked the data just to see that there is actually not soo much difference. You can squeeze roughly 110 ft lbs out of a 5" .22lr, the same a 3" .32acp will average. Did I get something wrong there or do you really need some 2" more to achieve the power of say a Kel Tec P32 with a (thus somewhat larger) .22lr? Due to the smaller diameter, penetration must even be better... __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

May 12, 2020, 12:42 PM	#2
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,888	.22 LR penetration is not going to be as good as .32 ACP, the heavier bullet is the difference, even if it is 45% larger in diameter. Looking at the Lucky Gunner tests, the .22 LR from a 4" barrel gets about 15 inches consistently with a 4 inch barrel, while .32 ACP gets 17 inches with just a 3 inch barrel, well over 20 inches with a 4 inch barrel. Also, at longer distances the .32 will hold it's energy better than .22 will from a handgun, that means better penetration and not just that, but straight penetration. The biggest problem with .22 it's so light it curves in a medium easily so where you hit a target, it may take a dive and exit out their side or some other wacky move. Does that mean .22 is useless for defense? No, it's just not superior to .32 ACP. .25 ACP... it probably is solely because it's so much less expensive that people can shoot their gun a lot more and become very proficient with it. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

May 12, 2020, 12:43 PM	#4
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	The .22lr is not superior to the .25 from a 2" barrel. The .22 lr is primarily a rifle cartridge that needs barrel length to achieve velocity. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 12, 2020, 02:03 PM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	Energy is a poor predictor of how well cartridges perform, so is momentum. Real world they will be closer than many believe. Neither would be my top pick, but I'd lean toward the 32 if choosing. And a big part of that is that while pretty reliable, rimfire ammo is always a little more likely to misfire than centerfire ammo __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

May 12, 2020, 07:17 PM	#9
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	In order of energy from a 2" barrel - 22LR, 25 ACP, & 32 ACP. For the same number of rounds in a pistol, I'd take a 25 over a 22 and a 32 over a 25. 22LR is a rifle cartridge. A number of years ago, I picked up my first NAA Mini. It had a 1 5/8" barrel. I chrono'd it with about a dozen different cartridges and the average fps was between the high 500's to the low 700's. That translates to a maximum of 50 ft lbs A 25 ACP from a old Bauer or Colt Vest Pocket will give you somewhere around 70 ft lbs. A 32 ACP from a Kel Tec P32 will give you 110 to 175 ft lbs depending on ammo. A lot of crap has been said over the years about 25 ACP, but to this day there hasn't been a 32 or 380 as small as one of those old 25's. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

May 12, 2020, 12:43 PM	#3
Metric Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2016 Posts: 344	.22 velocity does drop off pretty fast at short barrel length: http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html Using CCI Velocitor, you can probably expect about 1000 fps out of a 3" barrel, and there are some .32 acp loads that will exceed that velocity with a heavier bullet (e.g. the underwood xtreme defender +p load). However, penetration from both is probably just fine. If you put a hole in something really important, caliber doesn't matter too much: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power I do think something like a 5.5" Ruger Mark-series .22, loaded up with CCI Velocitor could be a fearsome weapon, due to sheer speed and accuracy. It just requires the right mindset and skill.

May 12, 2020, 12:58 PM	#6
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	Kinetic energy is mV^2 or mv*v comparing against each other we can say that it's proportional to bullet weight times the velocity times the velocity again. 22 LR ... 40 x 1014 x 1014 (4" barrel cci mini mags) = 41 Petes .32 acp... 65 x 939 x 939 (4" barrel fed hydoShocks) = 57 Petes so there is more kinetic energy. Momentum is mass times velocity 22 LR... 40x1014 = 40.5 milliBumps .32 65x939= 61 milliBumps so there is more momentum the hole size is ... pi r squared 22 LR.. 3.14 x .223x.223 = .156 inches squared vs .32 3.14 x .3125x.3125 = .307 inches squared assuming the hollow points don't expand, the holes are three times bigger In terms of cool factors, .22 ... Mossad Assassins .32 ...James Bond (for those that actually read the books) Yeah Buts- .22 "Yeah but .22 wmr and shooting jello penetration and I read that..." .32 "Yeah but when I have saved up enough to afford another magazine you'll be sorry! Now be quite while I use these tweezers to load some more ammo." I think the edge there goes to the center fire round. Pros: .22 Low recoil, cheap ammo, quiet, everyone should own at least 3 .22s .32 Some very attractive well made surplus firearms and super accurate Olympic level target pistols. Recoil is also very low. Doing the math for .25 caliber is left as an exercise for the student.

May 12, 2020, 01:16 PM	#7
Metric Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2016 Posts: 344	Israeli Mossad and/or Sky Marshals w/ Beretta 71's (22 LR) > Terrorists w/ AK47: https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...mossad-22-lrs/ I mean .32 would just be crazy overkill.

May 12, 2020, 07:22 PM	#10
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	What he said ^. And I'd take any one of them over no gun and to be honest, I'm partial to the .25acp and love my Beretta Bobcat in 22lr. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

May 12, 2020, 09:44 PM	#11
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	I've heard/read that JB created the .25 to be a center fire cartridge with .22LR ballistics, with the advantage of the .25 being CF reliability.

May 12, 2020, 10:11 PM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	A large part of that CF reliability is FEEDING. Its not just more reliable ignition than a rimfire. Remember that back around 1900 and for a while after, center fire ignition was not as reliable as it is today. One of the reasons the .25s and even the .32s are useful is that they nearly always work. FMJ ammo and centerfire ignition are as reliable as it gets. Often the lead .22 bullet will do more damage than a .25 cal FMJ in a human body, because it flattens, expands and may veer off course. In my experience, here is no other firearm as temperamental about feeding as a semiauto .22LR pistol. Some will run well on any or everything. Some won't. Some will only run well on one or two brands/types of ammo. Some won't even do that, reliably. If you have one that runs well on something great. But if you don't? Then what?? When talking personal defense, which is better, something that punches an ice pick type hole every single time, or something which might do slightly better now and then, and maybe jam on the next shot? If a bullet reaches or passes through a vital spot, small differences in energy and diameter don't seem to matter much. If it doesn't having reliable follow up shots is very important. Over all, as a group, semi auto .22s are just not as reliable as centerfires. Individual guns may differ. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 13, 2020, 05:20 AM	#13
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,888	No .32's may ever have been made as small as some .25's, but I doubt that extra reduction in size ever made a difference. Personally, I don't trust .22 LR in a small semi auto, the length and heeled bullet is just too much to be reliable for any small semi auto pistol, but .22 Short I would trust more. It's weak, super weak, but at when we're talking muzzle energies of 75 ft/lbs or less, there's not much difference in effect on target other than penetration. I've said it before and will say it again that the only place I'm ever going to aim for with such small calibers is the head and neck. I can't imagine that it will make much difference if you hit someone in the face if they'll be able to tell it was a .22 Short or a .25 ACP. The one thing I can do with .22 Short is shoot it a lot more than .25 because of the price of ammo and even tho I reload, I'm never touching .25 ACP. .32 tho, it's the king of pocket guns. It is the smallest caliber I will ever trust to aim center mass during a fight and while it may not stop someone immediately, it has a lot better chance of doing so than a smaller caliber would. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

May 13, 2020, 07:38 AM	#14
ChimpMunk20 Member Join Date: April 16, 2020 Location: GA Posts: 70	I'd go for the .22LR. The .25 and .32 ACP's aren't much of a cartridge and are a pain to load for. Dad always advised me to never carry those mini ACP's. He said if you needed it all it would do is make someone mad enough to stick it up your butt and kick the handle off.

May 13, 2020, 10:59 AM	#16
tlm225 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 962	The first murder I responded to was committed with a .25 auto. 1 round centered on the bridge of the nose, DRT. A .22 would probably have had the same effect. If I had to chose between a .22 or .25 in a small pocket automatic for defensive purposes. I would chose the .25 simply for the reliability alone. I've seen too many pocket sized .22 pistols malfunction compared to a .25. __________________ All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

May 13, 2020, 11:41 AM	#17
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	If I was going to carry a .22 for SD I would want one of these. The 3" would have more velocity, but has the Snag City front sight. The 2" has a ramp sight, but less velocity. That bunch out in Utah should make a modern version; DA with 7-rd cylinder less than 1" in diameter. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867812455 https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867481193

May 13, 2020, 06:59 PM	#18
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	Lucky Gunner covered some of these in their pocket pistol series. You can check out the .25 acp considerations here: https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/i...ense-cartridge In my limited experience, .25 acp is pretty similar to .22 LR but in a centerfire package. That can have advantages. Generally, I'd prefer .32 acp for defensive use. Of course, I'd prefer .380 to that and 9mm to that but it all depends on size constraints. You need a gun you can carry and you need to be able to use it well. If that means dipping down on the defensive power ladder on occasion, so be it.