The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 10, 2020, 03:34 PM   #26
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,747
Wow Kell, I’m glad that you were not hurt. That must have scared the crap out of you! I’m glad there isn’t too much damage to the gun.

I’m from Florida and before I was old enough to get my carry permit, I carried my gun in a zippered bag in the glove box. This was perfectly legal since it met the requirement of securely encased. A snap holster in a enclosed compartment also meets the requirement and is faster to access.

I guess 44 AMP doesn’t live where they have good common sense gun laws. Move down south!
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old August 10, 2020, 03:49 PM   #27
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,977
Quote:
If this theory is right, the newer models with a hammer block could aslo be at risk, since the hammer block is operated by the slide. I'm certainly open to any alternate theory.
I don't think the newer models are at risk, S&W redesigned the internals, twice at least, specifically to prevent the issue.

Quote:
I guess 44 AMP doesn’t live where they have good common sense gun laws. Move down south!
we USED to, 40+ years ago when I moved here.

We lost a LOT of our freedoms in the last two election cycles, thanks to anti gun "safety" initiatives and the high population density of the "left coast" outvoting the rest of the state.

Moving isn't a viable option for me.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 10, 2020, 11:51 PM   #28
Driftwood Johnson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2014
Location: Land of the Pilgrims
Posts: 1,932
Quote:
If this theory is right, the newer models with a hammer block could aslo be at risk, since the hammer block is operated by the slide. I'm certainly open to any alternate theory.
Howdy Again

The internal design of Smith and Wesson revolvers has undergone many, many subtle changes over the years.

This is the photo I posted, and you said it looks like the interior of your revolver, or something to that effect. This is a 38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 2nd Change that shipped in 1908. I can understand your thought that the rounded design of the hump on the top of the rebound slide may have caused the slide to move back when pressure was applied by the bottom of the hammer, allowing the hammer to fall all the way forward.






This is the mechanism of a 38 M&P 4th change that shipped in 1939. Note how the geometry of the interface of the hump on top of the rebound slide and the bottom of the hammer has changed. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect the engineers at S&W were aware of the shortcomings of the previous design with the rounded profile to the parts, so I suspect that is what drove them to come up with this design of the rebound slide and bottom of the hammer. The parts are squared off, there are no curved surfaces in contact with each other, so I suspect this rebound slide would not get driven back if the hammer spur received a heavy blow.






Here is another view, with the 2nd style of hammer block that S&W was using at the time. This is the style of hammer block that failed in 1944, leading to the development of the current style of hammer block. The failure was attributed to the fact that the hammer block was stuck in the retracted position because of hardened cosmoline preventing it from springing to the 'safe' position which would have blocked the hammer. S&W had a large wartime contract with the government, and the govt threatened to cancel the contract unless a solution was found, and found quickly. S&W instigated a 'crash program' testing the design and found numerous failures. I suspect what happened was the thin section at the bottom of the hammer sheared, allowing hammers to fall forward if the hammer block was not functioning properly. Incidentally, S&W came up with the new hammer block, the style that is still used today, in one week.






This is the lockwork of a Model 14-3 that shipped in 1974. Notice how the two surfaces of the top of the rebound slide and the bottom of the hammer meet together completely lined up and completely squared off. I cannot imagine how a blow to the hammer spur could possibly drive the rebound slide back. If anything, a strong blow to the hammer spur would shear the bottom of the hammer or possibly crush the rebound slide, or break the hammer stud, but the hammer block would be in position to prevent the hammer from falling any farther. This is the way S&W was building their revolvers for many years until the advent of MIM parts






This Model 617-6 left the factory in 2003. Most of the internal parts are Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts. However the geometry of the parts is very similar to the forged and machined parts of the earlier revolvers.


Last edited by Driftwood Johnson; August 11, 2020 at 11:59 AM.
Driftwood Johnson is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 08:05 AM   #29
OldCranky1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2019
Posts: 9
In the state of Kentucky you can carry loaded concealed or open carry. If you pulled over 10 cars at random in my county and searched them I suspect you would find pistols in 6-7 of them, loaded and ready to go.
OldCranky1 is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 08:26 AM   #30
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 484
Quote:
In the state of Kentucky you can carry loaded concealed or open carry.
I was at a gun shop last week near Louisville just wasting time. There was an older couple that I would guess in their mid-80s looking at .22 handguns. I overheard the clerk mention that since they had CCDW, they could leave with a gun.

It is a pretty safe bet that anyone you encounter in public in KY has a gun on them.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 03:30 PM   #31
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 608
1. A negligent discharge occurred.
2. To learn from this event so it does not happen again:
a. Don’t drop your gun or zip your case are not helpful preventions
b. Don’t keep a loaded round under the hammer for older designs.
c. Don’t keep loaded guns around unless intended for ready use.
d. If you forget what is in your trunk and drive in to another state...
e. I have not had a negligent discharge myself. Yet. I take the best precautions I can and stay paranoid about it, knowing it’s always possible.

Sharing these events is important so the community can learn from them.

I’m glad no one was hurt.

My theory is that despite the worst possible combination of odd events, there is still no revolver equivalent to “Glock Leg”.
__________________
I hunt, shoot bullseye, plink, reload, and tinker with firearms. I have hung out with the Cowboy Action fellas. I have no interest in carrying firearms in urban areas.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 03:44 PM   #32
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,388
Quote:
Here is another view, with the 2nd style of hammer block that S&W was using at the time.
Driftwood, do you have a picture of the first type? I thought it was just rebound only, flag, 1944, but you say there is a third (first) type.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 07:53 PM   #33
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,977
Quote:
My theory is that despite the worst possible combination of odd events, there is still no revolver equivalent to “Glock Leg”.
What about the "cowboy limp" from carrying 6 rnds in a Colt SAA when saddling your horse??

Sure, not all common today, as we no longer generally ride horses and carry Colt SAA sixguns, but it was a fairly common thing during the cowboy era.

For those unaware, let me explain...

Colt SAA (or similar gun) with live round under the hammer worn in a belt holster. And on the side facing the horse...

you throw the stirrup up on top of the saddle (getting it out of the way) and tighten the girth strap. Horse (who doesn't particularly like having his belly squeezed) moves a little, heavy stirrup iron slides down off the saddle seat, striking the hammer of the holstered SAA.

BANG!!!

Very frequently cutting a groove in the cowboy's leg, and /or a hole in his foot...

Close enough to "Glock leg" for me to count them the same result, though with different causes.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 11, 2020, 07:57 PM   #34
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,388
One of the several lawsuits leading up to the Ruger New Model with transfer bar.
Except off the wing of a bush plane.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 12, 2020, 08:05 AM   #35
OldCranky1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2019
Posts: 9
Back in the 1990's a friend of mine was the chief of police in the local small town and KY was trying to pass CCW legislation. He was invited by the local ladies political group to speak to them about the legislation. The leader was a leftist and thought he would give them a sermon on how it was bad to even suggest such at thing. As she introduced him she stated he's hear to talk about this legislation and how it would make his and his officers jobs much harder to do and she handed it off to him.

He started by introducing himself and then said actually the legislation would make no difference in how they conduct their jobs because he trains his officers to suspect there maybe a firearm in any car they pull over. They don't do felony stops with every speeder but just use common sense precautions because open carry was legal in KY at that time. He then said people who get the CCW concern him less than those without and then went on the describe how his officers treat open carry citizens with respect as long as they don't grab the weapon while in the officers presence.

Then the leftist group leader still picking her jaw up off the floor asked him if carrying concealed now was illegal and how his officers dealt with that and he explained it and how a car is searched and he said he watched the ladies in the group squirm and eyeball their purses and he said out of the 15 women there he suspected if he had searched their purses he would have collected at least 8-9 from their purses, it tickled him. Before CCW in KY his department from what I understand from him was cool with open carry and if you were carrying concealed and acting civilized and had no record they would essentially tell the person, if you are pulled over lay the gun in the seat away from you and do not touch it, just tell the officer when he walked up and keep your hands on the steering wheel and they would be legal.

He informed them if CCW passed and they had that permit they could keep the weapon in their purse, glove box, under the seat legally and just do what the officer said when you encountered police and do not reach for the weapon ever in their presence and you would be just fine. He wasn't invited back by the commie babe leader of the group...



In the state of Kentucky you can carry loaded concealed or open carry.
I was at a gun shop last week near Louisville just wasting time. There was an older couple that I would guess in their mid-80s looking at .22 handguns. I overheard the clerk mention that since they had CCDW, they could leave with a gun.

It is a pretty safe bet that anyone you encounter in public in KY has a gun on them.
OldCranky1 is offline  
Old August 12, 2020, 10:02 AM   #36
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 484
Quote:
you throw the stirrup up on top of the saddle (getting it out of the way) and tighten the girth strap. Horse (who doesn't particularly like having his belly squeezed) moves a little, heavy stirrup iron slides down off the saddle seat, striking the hammer of the holstered SAA.

BANG!!!

Very frequently cutting a groove in the cowboy's leg, and /or a hole in his foot...
Not to mention a runaway horse with a loose saddle....
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 12, 2020, 02:00 PM   #37
Driftwood Johnson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2014
Location: Land of the Pilgrims
Posts: 1,932
Quote:
Driftwood, do you have a picture of the first type? I thought it was just rebound only, flag, 1944, but you say there is a third (first) type.
This is the first type. The hammer block was positioned in a groove in the side plate much like the 2nd type. A spring loaded pin was activated by the hand to push the hammer block back into the side plate. I have positioned the hand pretty much the way it would relate to the hammer block. This one is from a 38 M&P from about 1920. I have not had this revolver apart in a long time, so I am a bit hazy on the details. I assume the hammer block was staked in place in the groove, and it was spring steel so its normal position was protruding out to block the hammer, similar to the 2nd type. I don't remember the specific relationship between the spring loaded pin and the hammer block, but you can see the pin rests in a recess in the hammer block. May have been tapered to retract the hammer block.






This is the second type that we are more familiar with. A ramp on the hand engaged a tab on the side of the hammer block to push the hammer block back into the side plate, clear of the hammer. This particular revolver left the factory in 1939. S&W was always looking for ways to reduce the cost to manufacture. The 2nd type had less parts than the first type, I assume that is why it superseded the first type.

This hammer block is the same type that failed in the 1944 shipboard incident. After an investigation it was decided that hardened cosmoline had prevented the hammer block from 'springing' to the safe position, but instead kept it retracted in the 'fire' position.






Smith and Wesson stood to lose their contract with the government so they did extensive tests and concluded that it was indeed possible for this type of hammer block to fail. They redesigned the hammer block and got the new one in production in record time, one week.

Prior to the shipboard incident, most S&W Victory Models had a V prefix in the serial number. Once the new style hammer blocks were introduced, they had a SV prefix. One might assume the S stood for Safety, but I have no information to support that.
Driftwood Johnson is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06562 seconds with 9 queries