Primer pocket issue

-Doug- · July 2, 2010, 07:05 PM

I'm loading range pickup .45 ACP for a 1911 clone. I've already loaded and shot several hundred rounds with no trouble. Case prep consists of tumbling only (Lee carbide sizing die).

I noticed with the batch I just started that some of the primers, Winchester WLPs, are ever so slightly above the base of the case. I'm talking barely perceptible to the finger. After reading some of the threads here I decided to clean out a couple of primer pockets to see if it made any difference. My dial caliper indicates pocket depth increases from 5 to 10 thousandths after cleaning the pocket.

My reading here shows that lot of people don't bother doing much with .45 cases, just load 'n go. My question is, after having loaded as many rounds as I have, do I now need to be concerned with this?

Or, should I go to the trouble of cleaning every pocket - which would be a pain but a lot less exciting than a slam fire.

engineermike · July 2, 2010, 10:53 PM

After de-capping, take a look at the primer pocket. If it looks like it need cleaning then hit it with a primer pocket cleaner or after de-capping your brass just run them back through the tumbler and it will take care of 99% of any fouling in your brass. I find that after de-capping a couple hundred rounds of brass I need a break and my tumbler is just setting there doing nothing.

Mike

**Unclenick** · July 3, 2010, 06:50 AM

Nominal seating depth is about 0.004" below flush. That the fouling is causing the primers to stand high increases the chance of failure to feed or fire. Slamfire is pretty rare because, unlike the self-loading military rifles, the 1911 firing pin does not float, but rather has a spring holding it to the rear of the slide. That why a feed or firing failure is more likely.

You can put some fairly serious pressure on primers without damaging them, and that can usually cut through a fair amount of fouling, but with multiple reloadings it does build up. Dillon says to ignore it until you see exactly the symptom you are seeing, at which point you clean them after decapping.

As mentioned, you can decap and just tumble. You can also precede the tumble with a dip in white vinegar, followed by a rinse and dry. This will cause the cases to stain, but the tumbler removes that. The reason for doing it, when you apply the mild acid of the vinegar, you will see the primer pockets fizz as it reacts with some of the residue. That weakens the residue so the tumbler will get it out more easily and completely.

Some guys have gone over to ultrasonic case cleaning, a la Hornady's system, but I can't see taking the time or trouble for pistol rounds.

James R. Burke · July 3, 2010, 09:34 AM

I always clean my primer pockets rifle, and handgun. I dont know if it does make that much of a difference but I do it. Everyone I take a straight edge(razor balde) and put it accroos the back of case. You should see a little light were the primer is if it is seated far enough down. I know that is a little over kill, but I know I wont get a slam fire.

Ozzieman · July 3, 2010, 01:07 PM

Using a single stage press after I size, I look at all the primer pockets before I proceed and the ones that have large amounts of crud in them I will put them back in the tumbler and clean them for several hours again.
That seems to clean them well enough for me. As much as I shoot, I really don’t want to handle each case with a cleaning tool,,,,, I’m lazy and let the tumbler do the work.
Rifles are a completely different matter. I clean each and every one by hand.

-Doug- · July 3, 2010, 10:14 PM

Thanks much for the replies. Looks like there are a lot of knowledgeable and experienced folks here.

It never occurred to me to use a tumbler to clean primer pockets. I like that idea! The thought of cleaning hundreds of primer pockets with that little tool (even mounted in a variable speed drill) IS a bit daunting.

I'm going to try Unclenick's tip about the vinegar too.

Have a good Fourth!

SQUAREKNOT · July 3, 2010, 10:53 PM

I had the same problem-turned out i was using large rifle primers.
It took me a year to find replacements for those primers. Best double check

Ozzieman · July 4, 2010, 01:33 PM

One thing if you do clean them with the primer removed in the tumbler.
Each and every one of them must be checked again for anything stuck in the primer hole. This is critical since most media has small particles that will get stuck in the hole.

-Doug- · July 5, 2010, 05:40 AM

Ozzieman,

Agreed. I see that on probably over 50% of the cases I do, and that's before sizing/decapping. It's easy enough to deal with though, the decapping pin knocks out the media (corn cob) along with the primer.

snuffy · July 5, 2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

It never occurred to me to use a tumbler to clean primer pockets. I like that idea! The thought of cleaning hundreds of primer pockets with that little tool (even mounted in a variable speed drill) IS a bit daunting.

Tumbling won't remove hardly ANY of the primer residue in the primer pocket. it's too hard, and it's in a deep pocket where the tumbler media can't get at it.

I don't bother cleaning the primer pockets on handgun ammo. I've NEVER had trouble getting primers to seat deeply enough, so why do it? If it makes you feel better, than by all means do it.

SL1 · July 5, 2010, 07:55 PM

the rinse in a bakinbg soda solution, not just fresh water. That stops the cases from tarnishing later, after they are dried.

I also further weakens the primer residue. You will see more fizz in the primer pockets when you put the cases in the baking soda rinse than when you put them in the vinegar. It is the baking soda reacting with the vinegar that has already soaked into the residue.

SL1

wilkersk · July 6, 2010, 11:43 AM

I don't clean primer pockets on .45acp. I haven't seen one yet that was so dirty the primer wouldn't seat all the way.

I get a few high primers when loading .45acp on my Dillon XL650. I chalk it up to just a quirk of progessive presses. Everyone I know that uses a progressive has to keep a sharp eye out for high primers.

I just keep a hand priming tool by the press. As I box up rounds, I chuck up the ones with the slightly high primers in the hand priming tool and give a little squeeze. problem solved.

Every once in awhile, I'll run across a round that the primer is too high to go into the hand priming tool. In that case I put it back in the shell plate on the Dillon press and shove the handle forward firmly.

noylj · July 17, 2010, 12:24 PM

I have never found a need to clean a primer pocket, but I have done it, just because...
The first thing to look at is whether your priming tool is set up properly.
If you are using a single stage press, then as you remove the case after resizing, use your $2.25 Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner to scrape out any powder residue. It takes almost no time and it will at least make you feel better.
If using an AP, you really can't clean the primer pockets easily.
What I do, however, is to always decap my brass before cleaning as part of the sorting and inspection process. This way there is some slight possibility that the primer pocket will be cleaned to some extent.
I hear people yelling about all the grit stuck in the flash hole. Well, my resizing dies all have a decapper on them so as the cases are resized, any grit gets knocked out. Besides, if you use 20/40 grit, there isn't much grit that is going to get into the flash hole.
Now, if you are loading for benchrest competition, you will want to go through ever case prep technique there is.
For pistols, however, none of that will mean a thing.

July 2, 2010, 07:05 PM	#1
-Doug- Junior Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Location: PA Posts: 7	Primer pocket issue I'm loading range pickup .45 ACP for a 1911 clone. I've already loaded and shot several hundred rounds with no trouble. Case prep consists of tumbling only (Lee carbide sizing die). I noticed with the batch I just started that some of the primers, Winchester WLPs, are ever so slightly above the base of the case. I'm talking barely perceptible to the finger. After reading some of the threads here I decided to clean out a couple of primer pockets to see if it made any difference. My dial caliper indicates pocket depth increases from 5 to 10 thousandths after cleaning the pocket. My reading here shows that lot of people don't bother doing much with .45 cases, just load 'n go. My question is, after having loaded as many rounds as I have, do I now need to be concerned with this? Or, should I go to the trouble of cleaning every pocket - which would be a pain but a lot less exciting than a slam fire.

July 3, 2010, 06:50 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Nominal seating depth is about 0.004" below flush. That the fouling is causing the primers to stand high increases the chance of failure to feed or fire. Slamfire is pretty rare because, unlike the self-loading military rifles, the 1911 firing pin does not float, but rather has a spring holding it to the rear of the slide. That why a feed or firing failure is more likely. You can put some fairly serious pressure on primers without damaging them, and that can usually cut through a fair amount of fouling, but with multiple reloadings it does build up. Dillon says to ignore it until you see exactly the symptom you are seeing, at which point you clean them after decapping. As mentioned, you can decap and just tumble. You can also precede the tumble with a dip in white vinegar, followed by a rinse and dry. This will cause the cases to stain, but the tumbler removes that. The reason for doing it, when you apply the mild acid of the vinegar, you will see the primer pockets fizz as it reacts with some of the residue. That weakens the residue so the tumbler will get it out more easily and completely. Some guys have gone over to ultrasonic case cleaning, a la Hornady's system, but I can't see taking the time or trouble for pistol rounds. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 5, 2010, 07:55 PM	#11
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	If you use vinegar the rinse in a bakinbg soda solution, not just fresh water. That stops the cases from tarnishing later, after they are dried. I also further weakens the primer residue. You will see more fizz in the primer pockets when you put the cases in the baking soda rinse than when you put them in the vinegar. It is the baking soda reacting with the vinegar that has already soaked into the residue. SL1

July 6, 2010, 11:43 AM	#12
wilkersk Member Join Date: April 2, 2009 Location: Western Washington Posts: 57	I don't clean primer pockets on .45acp. I haven't seen one yet that was so dirty the primer wouldn't seat all the way. I get a few high primers when loading .45acp on my Dillon XL650. I chalk it up to just a quirk of progessive presses. Everyone I know that uses a progressive has to keep a sharp eye out for high primers. I just keep a hand priming tool by the press. As I box up rounds, I chuck up the ones with the slightly high primers in the hand priming tool and give a little squeeze. problem solved. Every once in awhile, I'll run across a round that the primer is too high to go into the hand priming tool. In that case I put it back in the shell plate on the Dillon press and shove the handle forward firmly. __________________ *"Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas"*

July 17, 2010, 12:24 PM	#13
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	Cleaning primer pockets I have never found a need to clean a primer pocket, but I have done it, just because... The first thing to look at is whether your priming tool is set up properly. If you are using a single stage press, then as you remove the case after resizing, use your $2.25 Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner to scrape out any powder residue. It takes almost no time and it will at least make you feel better. If using an AP, you really can't clean the primer pockets easily. What I do, however, is to always decap my brass before cleaning as part of the sorting and inspection process. This way there is some slight possibility that the primer pocket will be cleaned to some extent. I hear people yelling about all the grit stuck in the flash hole. Well, my resizing dies all have a decapper on them so as the cases are resized, any grit gets knocked out. Besides, if you use 20/40 grit, there isn't much grit that is going to get into the flash hole. Now, if you are loading for benchrest competition, you will want to go through ever case prep technique there is. For pistols, however, none of that will mean a thing.

July 2, 2010, 10:53 PM	#2
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	After de-capping, take a look at the primer pocket. If it looks like it need cleaning then hit it with a primer pocket cleaner or after de-capping your brass just run them back through the tumbler and it will take care of 99% of any fouling in your brass. I find that after de-capping a couple hundred rounds of brass I need a break and my tumbler is just setting there doing nothing. Mike

July 3, 2010, 09:34 AM	#4
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I always clean my primer pockets rifle, and handgun. I dont know if it does make that much of a difference but I do it. Everyone I take a straight edge(razor balde) and put it accroos the back of case. You should see a little light were the primer is if it is seated far enough down. I know that is a little over kill, but I know I wont get a slam fire.

July 3, 2010, 01:07 PM	#5
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Using a single stage press after I size, I look at all the primer pockets before I proceed and the ones that have large amounts of crud in them I will put them back in the tumbler and clean them for several hours again. That seems to clean them well enough for me. As much as I shoot, I really don’t want to handle each case with a cleaning tool,,,,, I’m lazy and let the tumbler do the work. Rifles are a completely different matter. I clean each and every one by hand.

July 3, 2010, 10:14 PM	#6
-Doug- Junior Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Location: PA Posts: 7	Thanks much for the replies. Looks like there are a lot of knowledgeable and experienced folks here. It never occurred to me to use a tumbler to clean primer pockets. I like that idea! The thought of cleaning hundreds of primer pockets with that little tool (even mounted in a variable speed drill) IS a bit daunting. I'm going to try Unclenick's tip about the vinegar too. Have a good Fourth!

July 3, 2010, 10:53 PM	#7
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	I had the same problem-turned out i was using large rifle primers. It took me a year to find replacements for those primers. Best double check

July 4, 2010, 01:33 PM	#8
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	One thing if you do clean them with the primer removed in the tumbler. Each and every one of them must be checked again for anything stuck in the primer hole. This is critical since most media has small particles that will get stuck in the hole.

July 5, 2010, 05:40 AM	#9
-Doug- Junior Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Location: PA Posts: 7	Ozzieman, Agreed. I see that on probably over 50% of the cases I do, and that's before sizing/decapping. It's easy enough to deal with though, the decapping pin knocks out the media (corn cob) along with the primer.