45 Win Mag in Ruger Redhawk with moonclips

brianbelanger · February 16, 2019, 03:49 PM

Your opinions would be most appreciated:
Purpose: quick reloads in USPSA/IPSC (Major PF) , IDPA (6 shot limit) and ICORE (6 shot limit) revolver divisons.
Problem: 45 ACP Round nose 230grain ammo in TC moon clips is slow to feed regardless of chamfering.

Potential solution: Spire point bullets appear faster to feed into cylinders but spire points may be too long for 45 ACP brass. 45 Colt needs speed loaders (way too slow) but (longer) 45 Win Mag can use starline moon clips. Heavy and slow bullets appear favorites in USPSA revolver.
I will start reloading with Lee Dies in 45 Win Mag for my Ruger Redhawk (6 shot model 5032 in 45ACP/COLT), using: 45 Winchester Magnum starline Brass, NOE Spirepoint 260 grain mold bullets, federal large pistol primers, and TC moonclips.

What do you guys think?
Thanks
Brian

Ps: I already have a S&W 929 (6.5 inch) and 610 (6 inch) which are great. This 4.2 inch Redhawk is a hoot!

reddog81 · February 16, 2019, 07:00 PM

Will the revolver chamber 45 Win Mag?

Why do you think SP bullets will be too long in 45 ACP bras? If the frame window is big enough for 45 Colt brass any SP bullet of appropriate weight for 45 ACP should fit I’d think.

Any round nose bullet will feed just as good as the spire point bullet.

Jim Watson · February 16, 2019, 07:32 PM

Strange, my M25 takes clipped ACP RN very easily.
What is different about the Ruger?
Why do you think it would load (and unload) faster with a longer round?

**44 AMP** · February 16, 2019, 08:11 PM

Good Luck.

I don't play speed games, so I don't know how well it would work. With the working of the brass, from .473" to .480"+ and back every reloading cycle I don't know how long your .45 Win Mag cases will last.

T. O'Heir · February 17, 2019, 01:25 PM

The Mag won't chamber in an ACP. 300 thou too long. The Mag's case is over an inch long vs the .898" of the ACP. None of it has anything to do with the shape of the bullet.
"...45 ACP Round nose...too slow..." Try a 230 grain Flat Point. Think HP without the hole. Feed like hot dam in a pistol. However, making some ACP DP rounds and practicing would work too. Probably better.

silvermane_1 · February 20, 2019, 06:40 AM

Well 45 Win Mag would chamber in a 454 Casull, but you would be talking a Super Redhawk.

Jim Watson · February 21, 2019, 09:28 AM

Wrong again, T. The OP has the .45 Colt with clip cuts to accommodate .45 ACP. Plenty of chamber depth for Win Mag, although I do not see it as an advantage.

gwpercle · February 22, 2019, 04:37 PM

That NOE mould casts a very interesting design...at 266 grains it will be a hard hitter.
That spire point might be just the ticket to fast full moon clip reloads .
I would have to try it...I have a sneaking suspicion it just might be a winner!

Gary

BBarn · February 22, 2019, 05:53 PM

You might also consider a bullet you can roll crimp into a crimping groove or cannelure. That would likely might improve loading speed as well. With the use of the moon clips, a taper crimp is no longer needed for headspacing. Then it becomes a matter of whether the chosen bullet will fit into the 45 Automatic case without bulging and achieve the power level you need. If not, that is where the Win. Mag. case enters the picture as originally suggested.

brianbelanger · February 23, 2019, 12:56 AM

Thank you everyone for your great insights. You have given me a lot to think about. I have already bought the Spire Point moulds from NOE and have lots of 1 time shot 45 acp brass; I’d consider 45 Win Mag now as a back up if the spire point cast bullet can’t stay firmly seated. Here are some of my calculations along with two questions.

#1 Question: Pistols have feed ramps, revolvers do not. Could a spire point bullet in a revolver (+moonclip) mimic a feed ramp and therefore feed faster, with fewer hang ups than a round nose or truncated cone bullet?

#2 Question: Can a .0.825 inch bullet effectively stay in a case with only 0.191 (23%) in the case? It is normally 0.191/0.568 = 33.6% in the case. If not a 45 Winchester Magnum case may be necessary? : 0.300 inches longer than 45 ACP

Thank you again for your support.
Google Drive links for 45 acp seating and crimp calculations

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PaF...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MNF...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SW8...w?usp=drivesdk

Cheers
Brian

reddog81 · February 23, 2019, 01:41 AM

A spire point might feed slightly better. A round nose bullet should just drop in with minimal effort. I doubt they’ll be much difference between the 2.

The 230 grain spire point would work a lot better with 45 ACP. The 260 grain bullet will probably stay in the case just fine but is really meant for .45 Colt, .454 Casuall or 460 S&W. The problem with the spire point bullet is that the nose is very small and the bearing surface is very long. Even the data for the 230 grain SP bullet would need to be adjusted downward from regular 230 grain bullet data. I have no idea where data for the 260 bullet is going to come from.

brianbelanger · February 23, 2019, 12:05 PM

Yes you are right. That is true fore the S&W in 45acp. My revolver is The newish Ruger Redhawk model 5032 which comes available in 45acp ( moonclipd) and 45 Colt ( rimmed therefore would use speedloaders)
Please see the links to calculations in this thread? Thank you

reddog81 · February 23, 2019, 02:33 PM

I’m sure the 260 grain bullet can be fired and work in the .45 ACP case in that gun but it’s a question of how well it would work. It seems like it’d be much easier to just use .45 Colt brass and use the appropriate load data.

I’d think finding the appropriate load data for that combination would be problematic.

brianbelanger · February 23, 2019, 03:04 PM

Hi everyone,great feedback; here are some responses:

Red dog 81:
Great to hear you think “the 266 should stay in the case just fine”. That is my hope also. My goal is to reach 170 power-factor using heavy bullets and fast powder which I believe may minimize recoil.
“RN should drop in with minimal effort” yes, perhaps I should increase my chamfer? My concern is interfering with the tolerances of the moon clip ejector?
Load data from Hodgson, Hornady and Speer (1979)

BBarn:
Yes 100% agree. Thank you for the roll crimp idea!

GWPercle:
Yes. My goal is 170 power factor.

44AMP:
This is a valid concern, I have no answer. I will experiment with 45 WIN MAG this summer, after the Canadian snow melts (about June). The 0.473 to 0.480 expansion and contraction may also effect case extraction?

A World’s First?
This Ruger Redhawk model 5032 in 45ACP/Colt may be the first production firearm since the 1980’s to accommodate the 45 Winchester Magnum case? It appears to be the first revolver ever?

Heavy Hitter for Hunting with fast reloads using Moon Clips?
Please consider: Quick reloads with big bore hunting revolvers need speed loaders. Moon clips are significantly faster than speed-loaders. 45 Win Mag cases accept moon clips. Maximum CUP specs: 45 Colt= 14,000, 45 ACP= 19,900, 45 Winchester Magnum= 40,000 and 454 Casull= 55,000.
It may be possible this Redhawk could accommodate Hunting big animals, plinking, ICORE, and USPSA/IPSC; all depending on your ammo?

Cheers
Brian

Jim Watson · February 23, 2019, 03:33 PM

There are frequent searches for .45 ACP 250-255 gr loads.
One of the old time NRA contributors said it would be hard on a 1911, but how will a revolver know or care?

**44 AMP** · February 23, 2019, 11:10 PM

OK, lets be clear. Are you thinking of using .45WinMag BRASS but not .45Win Mag loads?? Sounds like you're thinking of using the brass for its extra length aiding in holding heavy bullets and guiding them into the chambers, not using Win Mag loads in your gun.

You noted the pressures, and .45Win Mag is over double .45acp. Now even if There is a Redhawk made in .454 (able to take even higher pressures) it does NOT mean your gun in .45 Colt/.45ACP will.

There could be differences in the heat treat of the cylinder, you should contact Ruger's experts IF you plan to try to use the 40,000psi .45WinMag loads, BEFORE shooting any.

As far as the difference between the nominal .473" diameter of the Winmag round and the .480" diameter of the .45 Colt, it shouldn't make much if any difference in extraction, IF the loads are not "overpressure". What I was thinking about was how much the .007"+ expansion and resizing, expansions and resizing could shorten case life.

Personally, I don't think you are going to realize any real benefit from spire point bullets. The difference between them and the "pointed" shape of regular RN type bullets isn't much, and RNs slip in pretty easy if you're lined up with the chambers at all. I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll find spire points to be noticeably better at that.

Good Luck.

smee78 · March 16, 2019, 08:57 AM

Lol, Jerry Miculek never had a hard time speed loading 45acp moon clipped ammo. I would say more practice/training is in order to work on your muscle memory and speed.

February 16, 2019, 08:11 PM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Good Luck. I don't play speed games, so I don't know how well it would work. With the working of the brass, from .473" to .480"+ and back every reloading cycle I don't know how long your .45 Win Mag cases will last. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 17, 2019, 01:25 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The Mag won't chamber in an ACP. 300 thou too long. The Mag's case is over an inch long vs the .898" of the ACP. None of it has anything to do with the shape of the bullet. "...45 ACP Round nose...too slow..." Try a 230 grain Flat Point. Think HP without the hole. Feed like hot dam in a pistol. However, making some ACP DP rounds and practicing would work too. Probably better. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 20, 2019, 06:40 AM	#6
silvermane_1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: Burien,WA Posts: 897	Well 45 Win Mag would chamber in a 454 Casull, but you would be talking a Super Redhawk. __________________ Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE 9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c

February 22, 2019, 04:37 PM	#8
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	That NOE mould casts a very interesting design...at 266 grains it will be a hard hitter. That spire point might be just the ticket to fast full moon clip reloads . I would have to try it...I have a sneaking suspicion it just might be a winner! Gary Last edited by gwpercle; February 22, 2019 at 04:46 PM.

February 23, 2019, 12:56 AM	#10
brianbelanger Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Location: Lancaster, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Redhawk 45 Spire point cast bullet: Calculations and two questions Thank you everyone for your great insights. You have given me a lot to think about. I have already bought the Spire Point moulds from NOE and have lots of 1 time shot 45 acp brass; I’d consider 45 Win Mag now as a back up if the spire point cast bullet can’t stay firmly seated. Here are some of my calculations along with two questions. #1 Question: Pistols have feed ramps, revolvers do not. Could a spire point bullet in a revolver (+moonclip) mimic a feed ramp and therefore feed faster, with fewer hang ups than a round nose or truncated cone bullet? #2 Question: Can a .0.825 inch bullet effectively stay in a case with only 0.191 (23%) in the case? It is normally 0.191/0.568 = 33.6% in the case. If not a 45 Winchester Magnum case may be necessary? : 0.300 inches longer than 45 ACP Thank you again for your support. Google Drive links for 45 acp seating and crimp calculations https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PaF...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MNF...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SW8...w?usp=drivesdk Cheers Brian Last edited by brianbelanger; February 23, 2019 at 01:06 AM. Reason: New info

February 16, 2019, 03:49 PM	#1
brianbelanger Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Location: Lancaster, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	45 Win Mag in Ruger Redhawk with moonclips Your opinions would be most appreciated: Purpose: quick reloads in USPSA/IPSC (Major PF) , IDPA (6 shot limit) and ICORE (6 shot limit) revolver divisons. Problem: 45 ACP Round nose 230grain ammo in TC moon clips is slow to feed regardless of chamfering. Potential solution: Spire point bullets appear faster to feed into cylinders but spire points may be too long for 45 ACP brass. 45 Colt needs speed loaders (way too slow) but (longer) 45 Win Mag can use starline moon clips. Heavy and slow bullets appear favorites in USPSA revolver. I will start reloading with Lee Dies in 45 Win Mag for my Ruger Redhawk (6 shot model 5032 in 45ACP/COLT), using: 45 Winchester Magnum starline Brass, NOE Spirepoint 260 grain mold bullets, federal large pistol primers, and TC moonclips. What do you guys think? Thanks Brian Ps: I already have a S&W 929 (6.5 inch) and 610 (6 inch) which are great. This 4.2 inch Redhawk is a hoot! Last edited by brianbelanger; February 16, 2019 at 04:06 PM. Reason: More info

February 16, 2019, 07:00 PM	#2
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,635	Will the revolver chamber 45 Win Mag? Why do you think SP bullets will be too long in 45 ACP bras? If the frame window is big enough for 45 Colt brass any SP bullet of appropriate weight for 45 ACP should fit I’d think. Any round nose bullet will feed just as good as the spire point bullet.

February 16, 2019, 07:32 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Strange, my M25 takes clipped ACP RN very easily. What is different about the Ruger? Why do you think it would load (and unload) faster with a longer round?

February 21, 2019, 09:28 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Wrong again, T. The OP has the .45 Colt with clip cuts to accommodate .45 ACP. Plenty of chamber depth for Win Mag, although I do not see it as an advantage.

February 22, 2019, 05:53 PM	#9
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	You might also consider a bullet you can roll crimp into a crimping groove or cannelure. That would likely might improve loading speed as well. With the use of the moon clips, a taper crimp is no longer needed for headspacing. Then it becomes a matter of whether the chosen bullet will fit into the 45 Automatic case without bulging and achieve the power level you need. If not, that is where the Win. Mag. case enters the picture as originally suggested.

February 23, 2019, 01:41 AM	#11
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,635	A spire point might feed slightly better. A round nose bullet should just drop in with minimal effort. I doubt they’ll be much difference between the 2. The 230 grain spire point would work a lot better with 45 ACP. The 260 grain bullet will probably stay in the case just fine but is really meant for .45 Colt, .454 Casuall or 460 S&W. The problem with the spire point bullet is that the nose is very small and the bearing surface is very long. Even the data for the 230 grain SP bullet would need to be adjusted downward from regular 230 grain bullet data. I have no idea where data for the 260 bullet is going to come from.

February 23, 2019, 12:05 PM	#12
brianbelanger Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Location: Lancaster, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	T. Oheir’s comment: Yes you are right. That is true fore the S&W in 45acp. My revolver is The newish Ruger Redhawk model 5032 which comes available in 45acp ( moonclipd) and 45 Colt ( rimmed therefore would use speedloaders) Please see the links to calculations in this thread? Thank you Last edited by brianbelanger; February 23, 2019 at 12:07 PM. Reason: New info

February 23, 2019, 02:33 PM	#13
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,635	I’m sure the 260 grain bullet can be fired and work in the .45 ACP case in that gun but it’s a question of how well it would work. It seems like it’d be much easier to just use .45 Colt brass and use the appropriate load data. I’d think finding the appropriate load data for that combination would be problematic.

February 23, 2019, 03:04 PM	#14
brianbelanger Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Location: Lancaster, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Responses Hi everyone,great feedback; here are some responses: Red dog 81: Great to hear you think “the 266 should stay in the case just fine”. That is my hope also. My goal is to reach 170 power-factor using heavy bullets and fast powder which I believe may minimize recoil. “RN should drop in with minimal effort” yes, perhaps I should increase my chamfer? My concern is interfering with the tolerances of the moon clip ejector? Load data from Hodgson, Hornady and Speer (1979) BBarn: Yes 100% agree. Thank you for the roll crimp idea! GWPercle: Yes. My goal is 170 power factor. 44AMP: This is a valid concern, I have no answer. I will experiment with 45 WIN MAG this summer, after the Canadian snow melts (about June). The 0.473 to 0.480 expansion and contraction may also effect case extraction? A World’s First? This Ruger Redhawk model 5032 in 45ACP/Colt may be the first production firearm since the 1980’s to accommodate the 45 Winchester Magnum case? It appears to be the first revolver ever? Heavy Hitter for Hunting with fast reloads using Moon Clips? Please consider: Quick reloads with big bore hunting revolvers need speed loaders. Moon clips are significantly faster than speed-loaders. 45 Win Mag cases accept moon clips. Maximum CUP specs: 45 Colt= 14,000, 45 ACP= 19,900, 45 Winchester Magnum= 40,000 and 454 Casull= 55,000. It may be possible this Redhawk could accommodate Hunting big animals, plinking, ICORE, and USPSA/IPSC; all depending on your ammo? Cheers Brian

February 23, 2019, 03:33 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	There are frequent searches for .45 ACP 250-255 gr loads. One of the old time NRA contributors said it would be hard on a 1911, but how will a revolver know or care?

February 23, 2019, 11:10 PM	#16
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	OK, lets be clear. Are you thinking of using .45WinMag BRASS but not .45Win Mag loads?? Sounds like you're thinking of using the brass for its extra length aiding in holding heavy bullets and guiding them into the chambers, not using Win Mag loads in your gun. You noted the pressures, and .45Win Mag is over double .45acp. Now even if There is a Redhawk made in .454 (able to take even higher pressures) it does NOT mean your gun in .45 Colt/.45ACP will. There could be differences in the heat treat of the cylinder, you should contact Ruger's experts IF you plan to try to use the 40,000psi .45WinMag loads, BEFORE shooting any. As far as the difference between the nominal .473" diameter of the Winmag round and the .480" diameter of the .45 Colt, it shouldn't make much if any difference in extraction, IF the loads are not "overpressure". What I was thinking about was how much the .007"+ expansion and resizing, expansions and resizing could shorten case life. Personally, I don't think you are going to realize any real benefit from spire point bullets. The difference between them and the "pointed" shape of regular RN type bullets isn't much, and RNs slip in pretty easy if you're lined up with the chambers at all. I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll find spire points to be noticeably better at that. Good Luck. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 16, 2019, 08:57 AM	#17
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	Lol, Jerry Miculek never had a hard time speed loading 45acp moon clipped ammo. I would say more practice/training is in order to work on your muscle memory and speed. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are