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December 15, 2018, 08:12 AM | #51 | |
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YMMV and all that but my wrist/thumb certainly puts me in the 'recoil sensitive' crowd.
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PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies” Last edited by USNRet93; December 15, 2018 at 08:18 AM. |
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December 15, 2018, 08:24 AM | #52 | |
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I was going to say Caliber wars are boring. But hey I read two pages of this |
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December 15, 2018, 09:51 AM | #53 |
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Since this always seems to come up, please understand that attacks end for various reasons. Some are more definite than others but here are a few common reasons:
- Disruption of central nervous system - Reaction to pain - Reaction to realization of being shot - Mechanical damage to involved body parts - Disconnection of nerves to involved body parts - Failure of circulatory system Yes, shot placement is king. Yes, you can get better at that with stress training, shooting from different positions, and practicing against moving targets. However, it won't always be possible and we all need to understand that reality. Real-life defensive situations can be chaotic and downright messy. You might be tangled up with an attacker, a group of attackers, or an aggressive animal. You might be lucky to get one into a pelvic girdle, a thigh, or even just a bicep. So while good shot placement towards a definite end is ideal, sometimes it will come down to things like breaking bones or ripping a good hole. Let's all be humble in not knowing the future and just doing what we can to reasonably prepare for possibilities. |
December 15, 2018, 10:22 AM | #54 | |
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I am not convinced that there is a dramatic difference between 9mm and 45ACP when it does just come to inflicting trauma, and that's really the key. As you stated above, all else being equal a 9mm holds more and for most people involves less felt recoil. Does the destructive potential of 45ACP make up for those differences. That's been debated and will be debated forever it seems. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; December 15, 2018 at 10:31 AM. |
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December 15, 2018, 10:45 AM | #55 |
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Shot placement is king. You can shoot 9mm twice as often as .45 for the same money. If you shoot twice as often, you’re likely to have better shot placement. If you shoot 100 rounds four times a year, it makes no difference.
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December 15, 2018, 11:17 AM | #56 |
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" .45 ACP, putting down bad guys since 1905. Good enough for me. I've had several 9 MM's over the years. Never kept one for long."
9mm Parabellum. Putting bad guys down since 1902. Not exactly sure when the first .45 ACP chambered handguns were sold commercially... It might have been around 1907 as the first Model 1905s went to the military for testing and the patent on the 1905's locking modifications wasn't issued until late December of 1905. As someone else has mentioned, if you're limited to hardball, then .45 may be the more logical choice. But we're no longer limited to hardball.
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December 15, 2018, 12:05 PM | #57 | |
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December 15, 2018, 04:14 PM | #58 |
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My understanding is that the military wasn't really disappointed with the performance of the .45, it was that that the 9mm gave better ballistic performance out of submachine guns and was easier for semi-trained troops to shoot out of a handgun.
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
December 15, 2018, 04:15 PM | #59 |
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To each his own. I'm perfectly comfortable with .45 ACP, I'm not overly fond of the 9MM. Mike Irwin, my comment about 1905 was meant to be tongue in cheek. The date has no bearing on anything.
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December 15, 2018, 04:17 PM | #60 |
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I do know that my Grandfather had nothing good to say about his Thompson he carried in the Pacific. Between weight, recoil and inaccuracy (rate of fire related I guess, he didnt talk about the war often and we didnt press).
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December 15, 2018, 07:43 PM | #61 |
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LEO's/Military - Shoot their way Into Trouble.
Civilians - Shoot their way Out of Trouble. For an EDC/SD round: Bigger is better, and fewer is OK. So carry the biggest pistol you can (and will), and that you can shoot smoothly and accurately. For me, that's a GLOCK G36 6+1 .45 ACP in an IWB holster. Red |
December 15, 2018, 08:44 PM | #62 |
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I'm fortunate enough to have the ability to carry a full sized .45 that mitigates recoil well. I suspect that my split times would become unacceptable to me in a compact or subcompact .45. However, I objectively shoot a 9mm faster with the same amount of accuracy, thus I must consider switching to give myself every advantage I can.
It sounds like 9mm really is close enough in effectiveness to the larger calibers that the advantages of my old .45 may not make enough difference to be worth the slower split times, lower capacity, and increased expense of practice ammunition. I'm going to have to seriously consider getting a Glock 9mm to replace my G21 as an every day carry gun, as much as I have an emotional attachment to the .45 Auto cartridge and shoot it well. I've heard many say that Law Enforcement Agencies that switch to 9mm are reporting great results in officer involves shootings on par with .40 and .45. I'm trying to find direct sources to corroborate this and find more details. |
December 15, 2018, 09:30 PM | #63 |
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Quote: (HAWG) - To each his own. I'm perfectly comfortable with .45 ACP, I'm not overly fond of the 9MM.
I need to do a +1 to this post ! I own only one 9MM, and that is a Sig P226 my Son gave me for my birthday a few years ago. The sig is an outstanding weapon, and extremely accurate, but has not been out of the safe in close to 10 years except for cleaning !! Confidence in your choice is important, & my 1911 gets my vote every time.
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December 15, 2018, 09:46 PM | #64 |
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I've seen people shot with both and it wasn't until the slug was dug out of them (though most times a pass through) that I could tell what they were shot with.
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December 15, 2018, 09:56 PM | #65 |
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the chances are so slim that I dont worry about what caliber I use, 9mm or 45 is fine
I wouldnt bother switching to 9mm if you are good with a .45 just use what your good with and stick with it. I would use a G21 for home defense Last edited by mr bolo; December 15, 2018 at 10:14 PM. |
December 15, 2018, 09:59 PM | #66 |
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December 16, 2018, 12:43 AM | #67 |
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My take, as a guy originally enamored with the 45, is this...
Lots of arguments spend a great deal of bandwidth arguing whether 45acp as a wounding capacity advantage over 9mm (1 round for 1 round). I contend that it is highly likely that it does have some advantage, especially since I believe momentum does a little bit more than knock bowling pins over with greater authority. Be that as it may, I do not contend that there is any radical terminal ballistic advantage to 45 or 40 over 9mm. Slight advantages... yes. Big ones, no. To the follow up shots are quicker with a 9mm crowd... a shot timer tells me that this advantage is way overplayed. Im better with my 1911 than with my CZ P07 on a dueling tree... so long as I don't need more than 8 rounds. I'm much better with both than I am with a glock 19. I personally believe the follow up shots are much faster argument is frequently touted by caliber defenders who have never actually measured their shots with a timer. Where 9mm shines is platform size and capacity. I can carry a 16 rounds of 9mm for less size and weight than 9 rounds of 45. Small, reliable 9mm pistols that are easy to carry are common. You can only reduce size in 45 so much, and the sub compact 45 carry pieces usually are more problematic. Take kahrs cw series. Their cw9 gets rave reviews and few complaints. For this reason, I now mostly carry 9mm.
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December 16, 2018, 01:22 AM | #68 | |
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Comparing the destructive capabilities to flesh and bone for good defensive ammo in 9mm and .45 acp, I'd generally prefer .45 acp. The problem is that's not our only variable. At least for me, the amount better that .45 acp can be in that department isn't enough to get over all the other advantages that 9mm brings to the table. I'll take 9mm over .45 acp in almost every situation. If we are comparing full-sized pistols that are comfortable to shoot, I will however take .40 S&W over 9mm. That's because there is a noticeable increase in destructive capability and it comes with less of a trade-off. |
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December 16, 2018, 04:30 AM | #69 | |
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December 16, 2018, 07:39 AM | #70 |
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"I've seen people shot with both and it wasn't until the slug was dug out of them (though most times a pass through) that I could tell what they were shot with."
Silly you! Then they could NOT have been shot with a .45! Everyone knows that people hit with the .45 simply cease to exist. Their corporeal being is blown into a dimension in between universes, and their souls are simply eliminated. Or so many would have us believe...
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"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
December 16, 2018, 08:10 AM | #71 | |
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December 16, 2018, 09:39 AM | #72 |
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30-06, keep your .45's and buy the 9mm, as I predict the 9 is just a passing fad for you, an impulse to the dark side if you will...
Your long experience with the grand old master of all pistol cartridges, the .45 ACP will win out. You'll be back! I'll add these lines from a long-forgotten piece I memorized as a teen in the 60's (slightly modified). For wide open spaces a ?9's? all right,PS: loose the Glock wanna-be's. Best advice I can come up with after 53 years with the .45. Best Regards, Rod
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December 16, 2018, 10:11 AM | #73 | |
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Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
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December 16, 2018, 04:07 PM | #74 |
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https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Se...Comparison.htm
This test does give me pause. The 147gr HST is supposed to be one of the top-performing 9mm rounds, and it failed to reach the FBI's minimum penetration of 12 inches in bare gel in this test. I know it's only .10" short, but that's still a fail and the .45 did not. I've always respected Dr. Roberts' work in this field. Last edited by 30-06 Rifleman; December 16, 2018 at 04:12 PM. |
December 16, 2018, 04:26 PM | #75 |
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One test of one 9mm load gives you pause about an entire caliber? Good grief, in that case just carry the 45ACP. You're looking for definitive proof on a nuanced subject. Here's a test that has a different result.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm Pick something and train with it. People love worrying about the hardware for what is at its core a mostly software problem. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
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