Alternative pro-gun organizations to donate to?

Kimio · March 14, 2018, 05:28 PM

In light of the NRA’s actions or lack thereof with the proposed bans against bump stocks, I was wondering what other organizations I can donate to in our fight to keep the RKBA on what limited life support it’s on right now.

Yes, I am aware the NRA has backpeddled a little and started pushing back again, but I’ve been getting increasingly wary that they are losing their footing in light of the that past half dozen incidents.

If there is any other organization that has similar clout to the NRA, then I’d be interested to know about them or even just someplace where I think my donations will actually make some kind of difference would be appreciated.

Not giving up on the NRA, but it appears we’re facing some of the fierces anti-gun attacks since Obama was in office, and sadly, we appear to be completely on the defensive.

zukiphile · March 14, 2018, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimio

If there is any other organization that has similar clout to the NRA, then I’d be interested to know about them or even just someplace where I think my donations will actually make some kind of difference would be appreciated.

Nothing else is like the NRA. I like the Federalist Society. They aren't just focused on 2d Am rights, but more broadly on a view of the law that would give the 2d Am. effect. Depending on your location, they may have frequent lunches with interesting speakers.

**JohnKSa** · March 14, 2018, 06:31 PM

JPFO (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)
Second Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA

I'm not a big fan of GOA because, at least in the past, it has spent too much time and effort running down other gun rights organizations as opposed to taking positive action of its own. But if it appeals to you more than any of the others, IMO it would be better to contribute to it than not to contribute at all.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 14, 2018, 06:50 PM

My vote would be the Second Amendment Foundation.

Dead-Nuts-Zero · March 14, 2018, 07:27 PM

I belong to 4 organizations but tend to favor (GOA) Gun Owners of America. They have a $20.00 annual membership, easy to donate extra if you wish. Seem to be more NO-COMPROMISE on issues than the others. Seldom do they beg for money so I donate extra to them frequently.

gunowners.org

Whatever or whoever, all gun owners should join one or more organizations and willfully donate more than basic membership dues to fight for our 2a rights.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 14, 2018, 07:57 PM

You should support your state association. They are usually very effective on local legislation and problems. They are more in touch with state legislators.

The Texas one - TSRA is excellent.

They probably get you more bang for the buck than some nationals as the wave of laws is coming to the states. Given SCOTUS won't touch state bans, you have to deal with them at the local level.

Bartholomew Roberts · March 14, 2018, 09:01 PM

The Second Amendment Foundation caved on Schumer-Toomey-Manchin in 2013 (when the NRA held the line I might add). It’s director even endorsed the bill, the unendorsed it, then said he was right the first time in a later interview after it all wound down.

I would echo Glenn’s recommendation. All politics is local. If you have a strong, solid state-level RKBA organization you prevent the opposition from building up a strong bench af the national level.

I’d also distinguish between NRA-ILA/PVF and the actual NRA. As much as the lobbying is important, the real mission and strength is the NRA (firearms education part). That is always a worthy cause even when annoyed with Cox and LaPierre for one of a thousand good reasons.

thallub · March 14, 2018, 10:23 PM

When it comes to donations to congressional candidates and political influence the second most powerful gun rights organization is The Safari Club International. That organization gets my money.

https://www.opensecrets.org/industri...Rep&cycle=2016

BarryLee · March 14, 2018, 10:53 PM

I'm not sure any organization has or will ever have the positive impact for gun owners that the NRA does. I realize they are not perfect, but for better or worse they are the big dog in this fight. There is a reason the other side is attacking them so aggressively and not some of the previously mentioned groups. As mentioned donate to the NRA-ILA and NRV-PVF where funds will be used to support ongoing fights. However, if you must have an alternative it does seem State based groups would be best since that seems to be where most of the battles are currently being fought.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 15, 2018, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thallub

When it comes to donations to congressional candidates and political influence the second most powerful gun rights organization is The Safari Club International.

How are they on Second Amendment and personal, handgun carry issues? Over the years, my impression has always been that the Safari Club is interested in protecting/promoting hunting issues, and not so much interested in protecting handguns and "evil black rifles."

Bartholomew Roberts · March 15, 2018, 07:04 AM

Safari Club is good at what they do. Protecting black rifles and handguns is not what they do.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 15, 2018, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Safari Club is good at what they do. Protecting black rifles and handguns is not what they do.

That has been my impression. And that means they are not a prime candidate for donations if you're interested in preserving the Second Amendment.

thallub · March 15, 2018, 05:30 PM

The Safari Club International supports pro gun congress critters who shill for the turnover of federal land to the states and developers, just like the NRA does.

Safari Club International contributions to individual congressmen/candidates:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/top...757&cycle=2016

NRA Contributions to individual congressmen/candidates:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/top...757&cycle=2016

Unlike the NRA, The Safari Club International does not have a gaggle of highly paid panjandrums posting political rants about hot button issues outside their charter.

Nathan · March 15, 2018, 06:30 PM

The NRA is the big fish. Any win will require their size. Buy in and hold your nose. They are on your side. They are playing politics. That’s how it goes. Splitting your money is like giving Bloomberg a donation.

Just saying. Also, it might be worth working to fix the NRA from within. Volunteer.

Also, tell all your liberal friends that the NRA is an organization of its members. That is why the news no longer call the NRA a gun rights organization. They call it a gun manufacturer‘s lobbyist group. It is much easier to alienate an organization who promotes the interests of big business, instead of the millions of individual gun owners interested in gun rights. We need to keep that what the NRA is about.

Vote Adam Kraut!!!!!!

**Aguila Blanca** · March 15, 2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thallub

Unlike the NRA, The Safari Club International does not have a gaggle of highly paid panjandrums posting political rants about hot button issues outside their charter.

But that's really the point, isn't it? The Safari Club is about hunting and conservation. Getting their feet wet and their hands dirty in the debate about school shootings, banning "assault weapons," and restricting handgun magazine capacity is outside their charter. Their monetary contributions to various parties and specific politicos may mirror the NRA's closely, but what those numbers don't show is what they ask for when they walk into a politician's office. Are they broad-spectrum 2A advocates, or are they Zumbos?

Dusty Rivers · March 15, 2018, 10:43 PM

Take the NRA out of the discussion for the last 20 years and what do we have, probably a full handgun ban and of course the AR 15 types. If we don't continue to support the NRA we will loose big time. We don't want 10 voices, we need one big voice. don't be divided!

johnwilliamson062 · March 15, 2018, 10:43 PM

Quote:

...but tend to favor (GOA) Gun Owners of America.

I was a member of GOA for a year or two. I liked their no compromise attitude. Then I realized they took it to the extent they were unable to work with ANYONE. Even allied groups. SAF get my money. My state organization get some. JPFO probably should. JPFO might get to some ears that are normally closed to the others.

thallub · March 15, 2018, 11:31 PM

Quote:

But that's really the point, isn't it? The Safari Club is about hunting and conservation. Getting their feet wet and their hands dirty in the debate about school shootings, banning "assault weapons," and restricting handgun magazine capacity is outside their charter. Their monetary contributions to various parties and specific politicos may mirror the NRA's closely, but what those numbers don't show is what they ask for when they walk into a politician's office. Are they broad-spectrum 2A advocates, or are they Zumbos?

Say what you want to.

The SCI has about 50,000 members and they contribute heavily to the causes of gun rights, hunting and conservation. Only around ten percent of NRA members contribute to the ILA or PVF. In addition to my gripes with the NRA leadership i tired of carrying other members who refuse to contribute the cost of a premium six pack of beer to gun rights.

In the run up to the 2016 election the SCI donated about $14.50 per member to re-election/election campaigns of members of congress. The NRA spent about 25 cents per member.

**JohnKSa** · March 16, 2018, 12:43 AM

Quote:

The SCI has about 50,000 members and they contribute heavily to the causes of gun rights, hunting and conservation. Only around ten percent of NRA members contribute to the ILA or PVF.

I guess I don't understand this. Isn't 10% of the NRA about 500,000 people, still about 10 times more than the entire SCI membership?

Also, I see that SCI is obviously pro-hunting and pro-conservation, but I don't see anything on their website about gun rights other than the obvious that a lot of hunting is done with firearms which they support.

For example, are they for or against the banning of semi-automatic handguns. Are they for or against universal background checks? Do they oppose or support firearms registration? What is their stance on "high-capacity" magazines. I can't find any of that information about them.

As far as I can tell, as long as there is any fairly reasonable legal means to own and transport typical hunting weapons SCI doesn't have a word to say about gun rights.

Here's the kind of thing that SCI cares about in terms of gun rights:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/sci...#axzz59t6cHxYn

"SCI opposes any legislation that infringes upon the Second Amendment right of law abiding young adults between the age of 18 and 20 by banning their right to purchase any long gun from a federally licensed retailer..."

I like SCI (I've been to the annual convention in Dallas) and I have supported them in the past and will probably do so in the future, but I just had never really thought of that support as being directed towards "gun rights".

**Aguila Blanca** · March 16, 2018, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thallub

The SCI has about 50,000 members and they contribute heavily to the causes of gun rights, hunting and conservation. ...

In the run up to the 2016 election the SCI donated about $14.50 per member to re-election/election campaigns of members of congress. The NRA spent about 25 cents per member.

Do the math:

$14.50 x 50,000 = $725,000

$0.25 x 5,000,000 = $1,250,000

To repeat my question: When (or if) the Safari Club goes calling on a politician in Washington, what are they pushing for? Are they supporting national carry reciprocity, no magazine capacity limits, and unrestricted access to firearms portrayed by the anti-gun forces as "assault weapons" ... or are they in Washington to promote hunting and conservation? If their only (or strongly primary) concern is hunting and conservation, that essentially means they're throwing the rest of us under the bus, and that makes them Zumbos. The NRA represents ALL firearms owners, and all types of firearm uses.

zukiphile · March 16, 2018, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Do the math:

$14.50 x 50,000 = $725,000

$0.25 x 5,000,000 = $1,250,000

Additionally, the NRA engages in important negative advertising that may not show up as direct contributions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thallub

Unlike the NRA, The Safari Club International does not have a gaggle of highly paid panjandrums posting political rants about hot button issues outside their charter.

Emphasis added.

If this is the bit about the NRA that bothers you (and you certainly are not the only one in this forum who has complained about NRA political alliances and associations) the organisations aren't the origin of what bothers you. It's the membership.

I've read people here complaining about something Loesch or LaPierre said that wasn't strictly confined to the 2d Am. However amongst people who see the 2d Am. as part of a more broadly principled limitation on government power, those messages may resonate. Over the last couple of decades, I've followed LaPierre's statements and I didn't always like them. For that matter, Heston wasn't excellent in his dotage either. However the NRA was still the most effective vehicle for 2d Am advocacy, so I stayed.

Once you get into a group of more than a few dozen people, something is going to transpire in the group that isn't entirely to your liking. I don't see the utility in politically disassociating from a group if you are in substantial agreement with its goals. If you have a serious disagreement on a core issue, that's a different matter.

**JohnKSa** · March 16, 2018, 10:51 PM

Quote:

If their only (or strongly primary) concern is hunting and conservation, that essentially means they're throwing the rest of us under the bus, and that makes them Zumbos.

I wouldn't go that far unless they're actually proposing restrictions that don't affect their particular special interest.

I don't see them actually trying to trade certain rights away in return for getting things that they focus on as being important. It does appear that their focus is very narrowly aimed at hunting rights and on the rights to own and transport hunting weapons. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.

Zumbo was a different story. If he had just said that AR-15s weren't his thing and he didn't care about them, I wouldn't have had any problem with him at all. Where he and I got crossways was when he called them "terrorist rifles" and said that anyone who used them wasn't a hunter and called for them to be banned from hunting.

SCI hasn't, as far as I can tell, ever been involved in attempts to throw other gun owners under the bus--they just don't get involved in issues that fall outside of their very narrow focus.

In other words, I don't see any problem with supporting SCI. I don't think that they will use any of that support to harm firearm rights. But I also don't think that money will go to further gun rights except in the very general sense of trying to insure that at least SOME hunting firearms remain legal and can be legally transported and used for hunting. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's just a different focus.

In The Ten Ring · March 17, 2018, 12:08 AM

Who is "Zumbo?"

**JohnKSa** · March 17, 2018, 04:26 AM

Jim Zumbo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Zumbo

"Jim Zumbo is a firearms and hunting commentator and writer. Until February 2007, he was the hunting editor for Outdoor Life magazine and host of the television program Jim Zumbo Outdoors on The Outdoor Channel. He was removed from both positions after he criticized the use of semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and AK-47 for hunting in his blog."

**Aguila Blanca** · March 17, 2018, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I wouldn't go that far unless they're actually proposing restrictions that don't affect their particular special interest.

I don't see them actually trying to trade certain rights away in return for getting things that they focus on as being important. It does appear that their focus is very narrowly aimed at hunting rights and on the rights to own and transport hunting weapons. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.

The distinction is noted, but it's a very nuanced distinction IMHO. There is a famous saying (variously attributed to both Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine), "If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately." I think that applies here. By now it's abundantly clear that the end game of the gun banners is to eliminate ALL firearms from private ownership. It's fine to just view the Safari Club as staying "on their message," but the fact is that if they don't stand up for the concealed carry and black rifle folks now, we won't be there when the gun grabbers come after the bolt action hunting rifles a few years down the road.

We are arguably at a tipping point, and I think today ALL gun rights organizations need to step up to the plate and join together in resisting these knee-jerk reactions to isolated (tragic, but isolated) incidents. Failure to do so maybe isn't throwing the concealed carry and black rifle people under the bus, but it's certainly not even grabbing them by the elbow to stop them from being run over by the bus. It's just standing on the sidewalk, watching the bus run over them. "Oh, well ... glad it's not me in front of that bus."

To me, that pretty much qualifies as a Zumbo.

March 14, 2018, 05:28 PM	#1
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Alternative pro-gun organizations to donate to? In light of the NRA’s actions or lack thereof with the proposed bans against bump stocks, I was wondering what other organizations I can donate to in our fight to keep the RKBA on what limited life support it’s on right now. Yes, I am aware the NRA has backpeddled a little and started pushing back again, but I’ve been getting increasingly wary that they are losing their footing in light of the that past half dozen incidents. If there is any other organization that has similar clout to the NRA, then I’d be interested to know about them or even just someplace where I think my donations will actually make some kind of difference would be appreciated. Not giving up on the NRA, but it appears we’re facing some of the fierces anti-gun attacks since Obama was in office, and sadly, we appear to be completely on the defensive.

March 14, 2018, 06:31 PM	#3
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	JPFO (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) Second Amendment Foundation CCRKBA I'm not a big fan of GOA because, at least in the past, it has spent too much time and effort running down other gun rights organizations as opposed to taking positive action of its own. But if it appeals to you more than any of the others, IMO it would be better to contribute to it than not to contribute at all. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 14, 2018, 07:27 PM	#5
Dead-Nuts-Zero Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2004 Posts: 579	I belong to 4 organizations but tend to favor (GOA) Gun Owners of America. They have a $20.00 annual membership, easy to donate extra if you wish. Seem to be more NO-COMPROMISE on issues than the others. Seldom do they beg for money so I donate extra to them frequently. gunowners.org Whatever or whoever, all gun owners should join one or more organizations and willfully donate more than basic membership dues to fight for our 2a rights. __________________ . . BANG------------ >>> !

March 14, 2018, 07:57 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	You should support your state association. They are usually very effective on local legislation and problems. They are more in touch with state legislators. The Texas one - TSRA is excellent. They probably get you more bang for the buck than some nationals as the wave of laws is coming to the states. Given SCOTUS won't touch state bans, you have to deal with them at the local level. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 14, 2018, 10:53 PM	#9
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I'm not sure any organization has or will ever have the positive impact for gun owners that the NRA does. I realize they are not perfect, but for better or worse they are the big dog in this fight. There is a reason the other side is attacking them so aggressively and not some of the previously mentioned groups. As mentioned donate to the NRA-ILA and NRV-PVF where funds will be used to support ongoing fights. However, if you must have an alternative it does seem State based groups would be best since that seems to be where most of the battles are currently being fought. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

March 14, 2018, 06:50 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	My vote would be the Second Amendment Foundation.

March 14, 2018, 09:01 PM	#7
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The Second Amendment Foundation caved on Schumer-Toomey-Manchin in 2013 (when the NRA held the line I might add). It’s director even endorsed the bill, the unendorsed it, then said he was right the first time in a later interview after it all wound down. I would echo Glenn’s recommendation. All politics is local. If you have a strong, solid state-level RKBA organization you prevent the opposition from building up a strong bench af the national level. I’d also distinguish between NRA-ILA/PVF and the actual NRA. As much as the lobbying is important, the real mission and strength is the NRA (firearms education part). That is always a worthy cause even when annoyed with Cox and LaPierre for one of a thousand good reasons.

March 14, 2018, 10:23 PM	#8
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	When it comes to donations to congressional candidates and political influence the second most powerful gun rights organization is The Safari Club International. That organization gets my money. https://www.opensecrets.org/industri...Rep&cycle=2016

March 15, 2018, 07:04 AM	#11
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Safari Club is good at what they do. Protecting black rifles and handguns is not what they do.

March 15, 2018, 05:30 PM	#13
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	The Safari Club International supports pro gun congress critters who shill for the turnover of federal land to the states and developers, just like the NRA does. Safari Club International contributions to individual congressmen/candidates: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/top...757&cycle=2016 NRA Contributions to individual congressmen/candidates: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/top...757&cycle=2016 Unlike the NRA, The Safari Club International does not have a gaggle of highly paid panjandrums posting political rants about hot button issues outside their charter.

March 15, 2018, 06:30 PM	#14
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	The NRA is the big fish. Any win will require their size. Buy in and hold your nose. They are on your side. They are playing politics. That’s how it goes. Splitting your money is like giving Bloomberg a donation. Just saying. Also, it might be worth working to fix the NRA from within. Volunteer. Also, tell all your liberal friends that the NRA is an organization of its members. That is why the news no longer call the NRA a gun rights organization. They call it a gun manufacturer‘s lobbyist group. It is much easier to alienate an organization who promotes the interests of big business, instead of the millions of individual gun owners interested in gun rights. We need to keep that what the NRA is about. Vote Adam Kraut!!!!!!

March 15, 2018, 10:43 PM	#16
Dusty Rivers Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Posts: 235	Support the NRA or ? Take the NRA out of the discussion for the last 20 years and what do we have, probably a full handgun ban and of course the AR 15 types. If we don't continue to support the NRA we will loose big time. We don't want 10 voices, we need one big voice. don't be divided! __________________ Dusty: I'm kind of a big deal! Rob Pincus follower PDN NRA Lifetime Member, our only voice!

March 17, 2018, 12:08 AM	#23
In The Ten Ring Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2018 Posts: 380	Who is "Zumbo?"

March 17, 2018, 04:26 AM	#24
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	Jim Zumbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Zumbo "Jim Zumbo is a firearms and hunting commentator and writer. Until February 2007, he was the hunting editor for Outdoor Life magazine and host of the television program Jim Zumbo Outdoors on The Outdoor Channel. He was removed from both positions after he criticized the use of semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and AK-47 for hunting in his blog." __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?