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Old August 8, 2018, 02:43 PM   #26
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I just have a hard time believing the Governor of New York responded to a politically motivated but legal gubernatorial action taken in Georgia by taking politically motivated but illegal gubernatorial action in New York. Other than hoping to woo Delta, I would guess New York's state government rarely gives a rat's backside what Georgia's state government does. The NRA is not a group the Governor of New York listens to anyway, so their applause is a minor footnote in the whole matter. Besides, if you don't cheer decisions you like and boo ones you do not just because it might make a governor acting like a mob boss mad, you can't really have political influence.
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Old August 8, 2018, 04:05 PM   #27
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These media stories are not providing the entire story (as usual).

At face value, one would take away from reading this that the NRA was selling the insurance, that the insurance was illegal and unlawful, and covered acts of intentional wrongdoing, and that the NRA paid a $7 million fine.

When the truth actually is, it was Lockton Cos., LLC and its affiliate Lockton Affinity, LLC that were fined, not the NRA. The NRA advertised and marketed the coverage, but wasn't selling it. The insurance coverage is indeed lawful, and does not cover 'acts of intentional wrongdoing', but 'self defense'. The state of NY though, deems this coverage to be unlawful, and thus far they are the ONLY state that sees it as such.

The only real wrong was that Lockton did not perform their due diligence when placing the coverage. They needed to complete a form on behalf of each insured, that documents their attempts to obtain similar insurance from other insurance companies, and were declined. The laws that are in place to control any insurance, are written to help protect the consumers. And each state has their own 'Division of Insurance', which is supposed to help enforce that all sides of the insurance industry are staying within the boundaries of the laws, whether its personal insurance for your home/auto, your business, etc.
However, its difficult to determine who actually was impacted:
Quote:
“DFS will not tolerate conduct by any entity, licensed or otherwise, in contravention of New York Insurance Law, especially when that conduct is such an egregious violation of public policy designed to protect all citizens,”
What citizens were threated by these violations? Who was harmed? Insurance laws dont always protect the consumer, even though the DOI exists to do exactly that. These Divisions of Insurance do stack up very large fines against those who skirt the law, and ignorance is never an acceptable excuse.

I work in the commercial insurance industry, and have seen numerous incidents where insurance agents do exactly what Lockton did. All I can do is shake my head and hope the DOI audits those offices. I know that I have done my job and abided by the law.
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Old August 9, 2018, 08:49 AM   #28
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by adamBomb
I did not support the actions in GA and I do not support them in NY. But the actions in GA opened the gates for reactions like this.
Considering that the NRA alleges the first discriminatory actions took place in September 2017, you might wish to reconsider your cause and effect analysis, since Delta didn’t even drop NRA members until February 2018.

For that matter, it would be interesting to see if the pressure from NY extended beyond the immediate financial industry. I’m curious how those different member discount programs are regulated under NY law?
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Old August 9, 2018, 04:47 PM   #29
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But the actions in GA opened the gates for reactions like this.
NOTHING opens the gates for illegal government restraint of trade.

There's more than just a bit of difference between "we're not going to give you a tax break, unless.." and "we're not going to allow you to do business unless..."

The former is an opportunity, the latter, is called extortion, (except when the Govt. does it...it's still extortion, but they call it something else...)

I've heard it both way, one version says NY state will pull their business, from banks and insurance companies that do business with the NRA, and another version says NY state will pull the business licenses of those who do business with the NRA.

We don't know what the actual truth is, yet, but if there is enough evidence for the NRA to file a lawsuit, and spend the kind of money that it will take, there has to be something that they believe is valid evidence, I would think.

Maybe its certain individuals in the NY administration, spouting off, trying to bully those businesses into dropping the NRA as customers, without any real authority or ability to actually do it, or maybe its an actual approved action, and there is some kind of proof, one way or the other, which is not yet public knowledge. We'll just have to wait and see...
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Old August 9, 2018, 05:22 PM   #30
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And an NRA life member and instructor counselor I talked to yesterday said he has been hearing rumors from multiple directions that the NRA will be (or is) bankrupt. I think that's highly unlikely, but I would be willing to believe that the anti-gun faction wants to believe (and wants other people to believe) that they have succeeded in driving the NRA into bankruptcy.

It's difficult to know what to believe.
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Old August 10, 2018, 12:36 AM   #31
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For me the NRA is the bedrock of the 2nd A fight. Every time the NRA is attacked I upgrade my membership. I am currently a Patron Life member. I am about to upgrade my CRPA membership to life as well.
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Old August 10, 2018, 09:49 AM   #32
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It's time to take a deep breath and put this in context. The source of all this is a lawsuit the NRA has filed against New York State officials for their attempts to blacklist the NRA by pressuring banks and insurance companies not to do business with them. The so-called "deep financial trouble" is based on exaggerations of this and similar quotes: “Defendants’ abuses will imminently deprive the NRA of basic bank-depository services, corporate insurance coverage, and other financial services essential to the NRA’s corporate existence and its advocacy mission.”

https://apnews.com/1da2efd20aac443096472e8a015c6c88

There's a world of difference between claiming damages in a lawsuit based on what could happen in the future and what's actually happening now.
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:39 AM   #33
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Though effectiveness varies, its a time honored tactic, if you can't stop the message, stop the messenger.
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Old August 10, 2018, 02:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyer898 View Post
For me the NRA is the bedrock of the 2nd A fight. Every time the NRA is attacked I upgrade my membership. I am currently a Patron Life member. I am about to upgrade my CRPA membership to life as well.
While there's nothing wrong with this, NRA membership dues can't be used for lobbying. A donation to NRA-ILA or the NRA Political Victory fund would be more effective as a defense against attack.
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Old August 10, 2018, 02:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamBomb View Post
This is what bad karma gets you.

NRA and republicans were jumping for joy when Georgia was blocking legislation on Delta Airlines simply because they didn't want to be involved in the NRAs politics (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...g-airline.html)

Now the NRA is up in arms that the left is doing similar things? Give me a break. Reap what you sew.

America's whole political climate right now is its only bad if its the other side. It was OK when it was delta but now its not ok when the tide has turned?
I agree that companies cutting off their services to play politics is a bad thing. There is, however, a fundamental difference between what the GA governor did and what the NY governor did. The GA governor was putting pressure on Delta to force them to NOT play politics. The NY governor was putting pressure on the banks / insurance companies to force them TO play politics.
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Old August 10, 2018, 04:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
I agree that companies cutting off their services to play politics is a bad thing. There is, however, a fundamental difference between what the GA governor did and what the NY governor did. The GA governor was putting pressure on Delta to force them to NOT play politics. The NY governor was putting pressure on the banks / insurance companies to force them TO play politics.
Exactly. You said it better than I did.
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Old August 11, 2018, 03:38 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
The so-called "deep financial trouble" is based on exaggerations of this and similar quotes: “Defendants’ abuses will imminently deprive the NRA of basic bank-depository services, corporate insurance coverage, and other financial services essential to the NRA’s corporate existence and its advocacy mission.”

https://apnews.com/1da2efd20aac443096472e8a015c6c88
Right, as I said in the beginning, I'm pretty sure that the organization still has quite a lot of fight in it, but being unable to secure basic corporate insurance is a pretty bad situation even if you're not relying on this month's donations to meet next month's rent and payroll. We're unlikely to wake up tomorrow (or this week, or this month) and find the doors locked and the website down, but this does seem pretty far from 'business as usual'.
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Old August 12, 2018, 12:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
Right, as I said in the beginning, I'm pretty sure that the organization still has quite a lot of fight in it, but being unable to secure basic corporate insurance is a pretty bad situation even if you're not relying on this month's donations to meet next month's rent and payroll. We're unlikely to wake up tomorrow (or this week, or this month) and find the doors locked and the website down, but this does seem pretty far from 'business as usual'.
Let's keep in mind that the financial shenanigans are only happening in the state of New York. At least so far.
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Old August 12, 2018, 03:36 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
Let's keep in mind that the financial shenanigans are only happening in the state of New York. At least so far.
I could be wrong, but I got the impression from the court filing that Coumo's position includes "do business with the NRA anywhere in the country, be prepared to suffer the consequences in New York," as with the Chubb Group "consent order". New York is a really major market and playing like that could have outsize ripples across the whole country.
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Old August 12, 2018, 04:05 PM   #40
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
Let's keep in mind that the financial shenanigans are only happening in the state of New York. At least so far.
Leverage is being applied in NY by the state of NY according to the allegations; however, because of NYC’s position as a financial capital, the impact extends well beyond just NY if the allegations are true.

One bright spot is Andrew Cuomo walking around acting like a movie villain and saying anything he can to bolster the NRA’s case.
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Old August 13, 2018, 07:08 AM   #41
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Sounds like illegal restraint of trade at a minimum and conspiracy to extort
It is more likely tortuous interference with business relationships. Basically, it is unlawful for a third party to extort and coerce an entity to stop doing business with someone it has an established business relationship. Seems pretty clear cut to me that the NRA has a good case.
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Old August 16, 2018, 03:48 PM   #42
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Andrew Cuomo is waging war on gun owners in New York. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

We need people who are dedicated to resisting Cuomo's intolerable an unconstitutional subversion of civil rights in New York.
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Old August 16, 2018, 08:37 PM   #43
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I see the problem as twofold. OTOH, the NRA has a struggling membership issue, only a
paltry 4.2% of all serious gun owners are members, because of the impact of 40$ upon their budget.

BUT, if the membership were charged MONTHLY, not only would it reduce dues to a paltry $3.50 a month, it would fit in perfectly with the NRA's monthly request that you send in
your "annual" fee, a perfect match for the NRA's postal paradigm.
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Old August 27, 2018, 03:13 PM   #44
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The ACLU has weighed into support the NRA. There's a post and a copy of the brief at: https://reason.com/volokh/2018/08/26...against-ny-gov. The ACLU is supporting the NRA strictly on First Amendment grounds.
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Old August 27, 2018, 04:06 PM   #45
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I've seen that also. Let's discuss this action and not go off on a tangent about other ACLU actions not relevant to the issue. We know they do not support a strong RKBA position. No need to replay that or their other social views.
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Old August 27, 2018, 05:18 PM   #46
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I think the ALCU's support is important because, to a certain segment of the public and the judiciary, it adds credibility to the NRA's First Amendment claim.
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Old August 27, 2018, 07:40 PM   #47
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^^^^

Kind of hate to admit it but I agree.
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Old August 28, 2018, 06:08 AM   #48
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The ACLU Press Release
https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speec...litical-speech

Quote:
Political advocacy organizations like the NRA (or the ACLU or Planned Parenthood) need basic business services, like insurance and banking, to operate. The NRA says that the state, using its regulatory powers over those industries, is threatening financial companies that do business with the NRA.

Planned Parenthood points to both public and non-public actions taken by the Reynolds administration to penalize it for its views. State officials issued press releases and sent threatening letters to banks and insurance companies, and also allegedly communicated “backchannel threats” to companies with ties to Planned Parenthood, warning that they would face regulatory action if they failed to end their relationships with the organization.
OK, so maybe I changed the advocacy organization and the Governor a bit in that second paragraph.

I think it might illustrate the problem to those who will simply refuse to see any problem with anything bad done to the NRA.
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Old August 29, 2018, 01:28 PM   #49
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The NRA has various branches and entities in the organization that are independent of each other.
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Old August 29, 2018, 05:49 PM   #50
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Quote:
The ACLU has weighed into support the NRA.
An insightful discussion of this action can be found at:
www.whenpigsfly.com

Naw. Just kidding. But didn't the ACLU side with the gun folk during the social security debacle where they tried to have a bunch of people put on the 'no buy list'?

Sheesh! What is that group (the ACLU) coming to??? (Maybe their senses?)
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