Plainclothes/Concealed Carry: Worst Possible Outcome

[jgcoastie]

What firearm for an undercover officer?
Easy, a Glock or a Beretta 92 in caliber of their choosing. Both weapon types are boringly common.

What method?
Border-style, with holster. For a RH shooter, take a LH IWB holster, place it directly behind your right-side kidney, and draw with your right hand, palm away from you.

[steve54]

Drop the gun and shout 'I'm a cop' at the top of your voice until they believe you

U/c weapon = G26 in ankle holster

[XD Gunner]

what kind of a firearm would you recomend for an undercover officer?

Glock 30, in a Crossbreed Supertuck, strongside, or a S&W 649 pocket carry.

[armsmaster270]

My method is the badge on a chain around neck and "Do what the nice officer tells you to do"

What type of firearm? I carry a Sig 226 357Sig SS Hip and S&W J Frame Airweight 357 in pocket

[ATW525]

Just to keep the thread interesting... as gun guys... what kind of a firearm would you recomend for an undercover officer? And how would you carry it?

Hi-Point C9 carried Mexican style.

[ripnbst]

Glock compact in IWB wherever the individual prefers. I myself (right handed) would carry right side IWB behind hip bone.

[booker_t]

For those suggesting Mexican/appendix carry, OneSource Tactical has this neat little kydex holster that is worth checking out. It's called the Zack Concealment holster.

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/zac...ntholster.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSvy5nQnd64 ..I would use a shorter length of cord than this guy, but you get the idea. Could be used anywhere around the waist as well, not just in the front.

Regarding the gun.. I would inquire about what the local department has confiscated most frequently and select one of the top three, based one 1) what I shoot the best, 2) what caliber is most potent, and 3) what is most concealable, in that order. Overall I'd lean towards a high capacity .45 semi-auto.

[juntau]

For the cops, there isn't much focus/training on dealing with possible plainclothes armed officers or how to react when uniforms arrive. I've heard from many "rookies" that said they would immediately display their badge at responding units. BAD IDEA

[Erik]

Why is that a bad idea?

[9mm1033]

I don't fear the uniform officer arriving on the scene of a shooting with civilians involved. It seems to be commonsense you follow his orders. He will make them LOUD and CLEAR in case one is confused about dropping his firearm and getting on the ground quickly. Now, regarding what some report on the internet as "negative personal experiences" with officers shooting at them like it was the OK corral, that's hearsay and probably bull****.

What I fear is the conceal carry civilian who 'wants-to-be-a-hero'. Yup, the guy who carries daily and can't wait to shoot his gun and be on the news as the guy who saved the day. How does one legal CC civilian identify himself to another legal CC person at the time of a shooting? Don't fear the trained LE professional, fear the unknown civilian who is also armed. Because a failure to communicate can be deadly among the good guys.

[boredom]

my guess would be anyone responding to a shots fired or man with a gun call will already be on edge, reaching for your credentials at the sight of a uniformed officer could be seen as a BG reaching for a gun.

[aarondhgraham]

,,,with officers shooting at them like it was the OK corral, that's hearsay and probably bull****.

Tell that to the dead cop whose scenario we are discussing.

LEOs aren't bestowed with magical LEO powers,,,
They are excitable human beings just like we all are,,,
They make mistakes like this all the time in the heat of the moment.

Just like the U. C. Riverside police officer who pulled a gun on my wife,,,
She had dropped her keys by the car door and he thought she was breaking in the car,,,
He pulled his gun on her and shouted for her to "get her ass on the effing ground right now!

So what you might ask?,,,
He was simply doing his job?,,,
She was one of the PD dispatchers,,,
And she was wearing her danged uniform.

I was a CSO for that same PD,,,
Basically I was a walking burglar alarm with a radio.

In two years of doing that job,,,
I had to stare down the barrel of a gun twice,,,
They knew I was out there yet they got freaked out and pulled their weapons.

Hearsay to you maybe,,,
Reality to me and my wife.

So cops make errors in judgement on as regular a basis as we civilians,,,
The moral of my story is that you can not put your faith that any LEO will do the proper thing.

They are human,,,
To err is in their/our very nature.

Because of that a person carrying had better spend a bit of thought on what to do when the cops get there.

my guess would be anyone responding to a shots fired or man with a gun call will already be on edge, reaching for your credentials at the sight of a uniformed officer could be seen as a BG reaching for a gun.

My point exactly!
Aarond

[Stevie-Ray]

One of the picture targets displayed a man armed with a handgun aimed at the shooter..but also holding up a badge in his other hand. This target was almost invariably shot, with none of the shooters ever seeing the upheld badge. Food for thought.

Sobering, to be sure. My thoughts and prayers go out to the PC officer's family, and also to the officers involved in the shooting, as they deal with what's to come.

[FireForged]

As a citizen I am not going to try and capture anyone or hold anyone at gunpoint. If I must use a firearm, I will do what I must then move to safety, reholster and contact 911. My thought is to make myself a non-target as soon as possible.

[Glenn Dee]

Juntau?

I dont know what department your rookie friends work for... but I'd say their inexperience is showing. Or perhaps their department is scimping on training. Oh yeah... they are Rookies.

9MM1033

You give me food for thought. A untrained civillian getting involved, and making a mistaken identity. That senario will be included in some future CCW class's. EXELENT point. My thanks to you.

The question about the undercover gun?

ATW525 is in my opinion the winner. Although I think I'd go a little better quality than a High Point. But he's absoloutly right.

Thanks for the answers everyone...

Glenn D

[therewolf]

Thank you FireForged.

While I carry, I also carry a phone, and I'll sure be trying to get the # to 911 from somebody ASAP.

After seeing to the safety of my family, I'd do my best not to do what I haven't been trained to do.

I'm not the police, the FBI, a PI, Captain America, The A-Team, Deputy Dawg, or even Danger Mouse.

[teeroux]

You try and not shoot the guy with the badge.

Anyone can get there hand on a badge. I've seen city inspectors that aren't LE at all carry badges on their belts.

[teeroux]

You try and not shoot the guy with the badge.

Anyone can get there hand on a badge. I've seen city inspectors that aren't LE at all carry city inspector badges on their belts.

[Ringolevio]

Glenn Dee's posts really took me back to my days growing up in NYC in the '50s, when those "on the job" carried only blued steel .38 revolvers, and a cop could identify himself as a cop by "showing tin" (the shield) or just "showing steel" (the gun).

My dad was with a bi-state LE agency and knew several NYPD detectives. One of them would take us kids to the movies. We'd get on the bus and he'd say to the driver, "Nice day, isn't it?", while pulling his jacket back to show his holstered revolver. At the theater it was the same move with the same line; he never showed the tin. Naturally it was all "on the arm". I think he "treated" us to ice cream from the Good Humor man the same way. Ah, the good old days!

BTW, an undercover or plainclothesman would identify himself to uniforms by his last name and the number of his "house" (precinct), e.g. "Miller! One-Three!"

I think Frank Serpico was one of the first NYPD undercovers to carry other than a blued revolver (although I know of at least one detective who carried a double-barreled coach gun under his overcoat!); they said Serpico carried a "14 shot 'auto'", which I assumed meant a BHP.

[Bullcoop]

Wouldn't the situation dictate the type of weapon an UC would carry?

I mean if he's UC for buys or reverse sting type then maybe a S&W J-frame on the ankle, but if he's going deep into say Hells Angels then why not the biggest baddest .45 he can find tucked directly into the front of his pants. That is after all, what the HA would expect to see one of thier members carrying. Or hell if the dept. allows it the UC could carry something illegal for cred w/ the target. He could even use the ruse of selling illegal arms to get in good (as long as none of the arms he sold actually worked or ever actually changed hands).

Just some thought on situation dictating carry. I'm not LE so take what I say with a grain of salt, and a large dash of pop culture movies!

BC

[Glenn Dee]

LMFAOOOO Ringolivio...

I doubt most people even know what your screen name means...lol
Man we had games that would last for days... Better Times Then.

Yes Sepico DID carry a browning High Power. Under special circumstances members of the department could carry unauthorized firearms. Back in the 50's the blue gun rule wasnt enforced. As long as you had a proper service revolver. My uncle was "ON THE JOB" at that time. He owned and carried his service revolver, a blue steel J frame chief special, a I frame 32 in blue steel, and a baby browning .25 pistol.

However enough reminiscing. The NYPD also will issue a non police type pistol to MOS assigned to undercover status, for the duration of their assignment. I wont share the make and model... but it's a fairly common gun. Undercovers may also purchase their own non-regulatrion gun. For a while the high standard derrengers were popular. An undercover I know used an older Colt Det. Special where he broke the handle, and taped it together with electrical tape. Carried it mexican with loose odd bullets in front right hand pocket.

Yep the actual way one pronounced their command was one way to be identified... but it wasnt perfect.

As far as the coach gun's?.. lol Up until the day I retired "savage 311" double bbl 18" 12 ga shot guns were in the departments inventory. In a big way. Before the days of Tommy tactical, CDI factor, ATAS fashion shows, police work was done with as little fan-fair as possible. That particular gun can be broken down and hidden in a small duffel bag, or even hidden in ones clothing. Yes it could be hidden under a coat. Thats the beauty of the gun. These guns were assingned to most detective squads, and plain clothed units. Along with ithica 12.ga pump 37's in some cases.

Bullcoop... I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head... except for the most part bad guys dont wear holsters, and carry so they can get rid of the gun as easlily as possible.

[langenc]

""A 22-year-old civilian football player was also killed by gunfire."" copied from post #1

Are there football players other than civilian.

I know LEO like to think they are not CIVILIAN. They sure aint military.

[Sarge]

It was a melee, folks. Things had already gone horribly wrong and they stayed that way for some time after the cavalry arrived. These things develop from out-of-control circumstances and overwhelming force is often the only thing that brings them back under control. Casualties are, unfortunately, going to occur.

Your opponent(s) may have friends in the neighborhood and they may be racing to the sound of gunfire, from any and all directions. You need to not get killed before the cavalry arrives, and remember that bad guys have cavalry, too. Either outfit will shoot you if you do something stupid enough. Fade away to the safest refuge, call for help and maintain a defensive mindset. Shooting the other guy is not a win. Surviving the entire encounter is a win.

Officers- absolutely carry your badge/ID case anytime you may be called upon to offer armed intervention. It ain't Popeye's Spinach Can, but it might keep you from getting lit up by your own kind.

[Sarge]

#46 was golden, Glenn.

[FireForged]

I think just saying Citizen is much better than trying to use Civilain. I am well past middle age and Civilian to me mean (someone not in the Military)