Shooting Liquid Metal

[madmurdoc]

(Trying for an eye poping title. Did it work? )

This is an extension from a mini discussion inside the rifle forum topic: "Real men love recoil??" After searching through the forum, I haven't quite found what I am looking for.

I am looking for a way to reduce the recoil in my Nova 12ga. The 2 3/4 and 3 in shells aren't an issue. It is when I get into the 3 1/2 in 00 Buck that my shoulder starts to get sore. I am looking for a way to cut this back but I have some concerns shoving a tube of mercury into my stock. That said, here come the questions.

1. Is the recoil reducer even effective? I hear mixed things here. Quantitative data would be prefered if possible.

2. Has anyone had a recoil reducer crack, spill, leak, or in anyway expose liquid mercury? I have environmental and health concerns here. Mercury poisoning is not something I want to get or taint my hunting grounds with.

3. Are there other options for minimizing recoil in the Nova by way of effective buttstock pads or other means? Custom porting of the barrel is out of the scope of my budget and obviously stock replacement on the Nova is not an option.

Well, there they are have at 'em. Thanks in advance for your input and experience.

[Danindetroit]

You said porting is out of your budget. I am just wondering if yo know that Ma-na-port? is in clinton township? I-94 gratiot to m-59, I can look for there site. I wonder if you have checked directly with them, or just some middle men? It looks like it is $88.50 for a row of 11 ports.

http://www.magnaport.com/sgun.html

I have the 835 and It feels like a pellet gun to me shooting 00 buck at 1325fps. I have a pad that slips on the back a pachymr to adjust for length Of pull the 835 seemed short, now I can really line up my shots. I was shooting about 15 with a dedicated trap gun I borrowed, and now with the 835 I get 22, and if where I shoot allows me 2 shots(slip the operator a couple buck, he lets me shoot another if I miss and iget around 24).

It has moved to Harrison closer to selfridge AFB. Executive Drive, delivered steel on that street, but I guess every city has an executive drive.

[madmurdoc]

That's something to look into. I didn't realize that porting would be that affordable. That's only about 20 bucks more than the mercury reducer. It's not like I would have to worry about shipping either. (I like local shops)

Thanks for the info, Dan.

[dfaugh]

for me and my buddies, both rifles and shotguns. I use a drill to start, finish with same-sized end mill (leaves no burrs) then take Dremel to make out side teardrop shaped towards side/back. Probably not as effective as "professionally done" Magna port, but we've all been happy with the results. On the first rifle I did (experiments in gunsmithing 101), a mauser I sporterized, it COMPLETELY eliminated muzzle rise, such that I can keep scope pretty much on target (using sandbags on a bench), it also imporved accuracy, presumably because of less gas upset of bullet at the muzzle. The Sporterized Mauser (still in 8x57, also know as FrankenMauser),with heavy target stock and recoil pad, feels about like a lightweight .223, with fairly stiff handloads. FWIW

[Danindetroit]

If you had a baby drill press, you could have dialed in about three degrees towards you to see if it helped the recoil. If not try a couple more and call it good as an experiment if it worked or didn't. I should measure the dia. on my gun and see if i got a drill that will fit, and use the old protractor.

PS mag na port say they use EDM, so there is probably a lot less chance of marring the finish, they use magnets to hold the barrels, and either regular electrodes, or a edm drill, we even had to EDM npt threads in a part of a tool that went out for hardening before being drilled and tapped for waterlines, what a country! I would love to tour that place to see the guns that go through that place.

[Mattio67]

My uncle knew Larry Kelly a bit quite the handgun hunter. I shot the M29 he did for my uncle 4in. barrel I was quite impressed . Thats the only ported gun I have ever shot. And I like the fact he's in Michigan too. Matt

[Irish]

I used to want porting for my shotgun until I started reading shotgun forums. The majority of people have been saying they can't feel any significant difference with porting and that it is a waste of money. Others say they can tell a difference. Supposedly it will cut down on muzzle jump.
The people I have talked to at the Skeet range say it is a pain to clean and makes the gun louder.

Why don't you try a ported choke tube first?

A heavier gun soaks up recoil (hence the mercury) the do it yourselfer will put some lead shot in a bag in the buttstock. The lead shot will turn to a fine powder, but after years of firing. I bought an old Browning that had and when I pulled it out I wore a mask and gloves.

I'm no physicists, but I don't see how porting reduces recoil significantly. The majority of pressure seems like it occurs as soon as the primer is struck and the powder is ignited (in the chamber area). Porting is near the tip of the barrel and by the time wad and pellets are there they only have a few more inches before they clear the barrel.

Good luck in whatever you do. You have more guts than me if you port your own gun, I would just scratch mine up.

[Danindetroit]

I looked a little bit closer at the benneli recoil reducers. They look like sealed units that might use internal valving, and no external parts, or just the fact that mercury adds weight to the gun to help with recoil. I would find a place that will let you actually handle the part, and see if it has moving parts, and check how the unit is sealed. Most refrigerators, and window AC units will blow a compressor, before they actually leak, because they are sealed in a controled enviroment, instead of in the field, like centeral air. I still might store the actual recoil reducer in the shed, or garage, when not using it, of it is easy to install. I hope I did not worry you over nothing. Benneli has a good rep for quality, and saftey inovations, I think they would not field a dangerous product, that did not have redundant saftey systems. I would definitely check it out.

[K80Geoff]

"Dead mule" mercury recoil reducers have a long history with Trapshooters and other clay target shooters.

An acquaintance who shoots sporting seriously uses Beretta 390 series guns and mounts three mercury recoil reducers in his gun. It shoots like a 28 using regular target loads. The gun is heavy! Two reducers in the stock and one mounted at the end of the magazine tube.

One company makes a reducer that will fit in the mag tube of Remington shotguns, it does recuce magazine capacity but this is not a problem for clay shooters.

Porting is controversial, some swear by it, others at it. It will increase noise, and trapshooters often will not allow it.

A good recoil pad helps, tru one of the Kick eeze pads, worked for me.

Some shooters have resorted to special recoil reducing stocks with shock absorbing mechanisms built it. They are expensive but seem to work.

Having the gun fit by a pro helps with recoil, but costs $100+ for a fitting session and then you have to have the stock altered which costs more.

You can make any gun shoot with less pain if you want to.

[K80Geoff]

Here is a link to a supplier of the very sophisticated recoil reducing stocks:

http://www.pacificsportingarms.com/j...gun_stocks.htm

Scroll down to the middle of the page.

PS I did say they are expensive

[Irish]

Expensive to say the least. You can get a new gun for that.

[griptheweasel]

I'm not too sure how much porting does for your gun, but the idea behind it is to redirect some of the gases that would be expelled out of the end of the barrel to the tiny holes right before the end of the barrel so that you don't have all that gas coming out of one hole (thus kicking the muzzle of the gun up in the air). Kind of like a silencer (which redirects the gases coming out of the gun into a space that cools them down, making the muzzle crack less audible). I can say for certain that the Dead Mule recoil reducers work quite well and definitely make the gun much easier to shoot (went trap shooting with my Dad for all of high school and some of middle school). My gun only had the Dead Mule, but his had a Dead Mule and a pneumatic recoil pad on the butt of the gun, which helped out even more. I'm not sure how much the pad cost, but it was a handy addition in the recoil reducing area.

Hope this is informative in some way to you.

[Danindetroit]

In what gun do you hear more noise that is ported. From people with ported chokes, or ported barrels. The same amount of powder is being burned, and unless the port points towards that person, they are lying. It is the same as the barrel facing down range. My ports face straight up. Ported rifles have ports in all directions. Have you ever shot next to a mossberg? The problem with mercury, is that it changes to a gas, and you will not know it. So if the seal on a mercury reducer leaks, it only has to be a pinhole, and mercury builds up in your system. Porting can not increase noise, it may direct it towards a person, in a poorly designed system, but nobody is above me while I shoot trap. Only the management can kick me off a traprange, and they haven't yet. This is at private and public clubs. People had their kids shoot next to me, and I let them use my gun why they shot with their kids. I have seen the ported chokes that skeet shooter use, and the ported turkey chokes. I always asked if people minded, and would have waited to shoot if asked. It seems MI shooters seem to be a little more understanding, because I have alway ran into people who have always been nice, and always helped me. I always try to do the same. I also always shoot 1300fps 1 1/8oz. # 7 1/2. So it is not exactly the quietest load.

[K80Geoff]

I have shot on squads with many ported guns, mostly Browning O/Us. They definitely are louder. In an O/U it is kind of hard to vent the bottom barrel upwards

Like I said, some people like porting and some do not. YMMV

I have yet to hear of mercury poisoning from Dead Mules, perhaps you can provide a documented case. They have been around for years, I have yet to hear of a mishap or leak. Although I realize it is possible.

I have personally observed trapshooters refuse to shoot next to shooters with ported guns, they also get crabby with autos and people with chronic gun problems that disturb their rhythm. But I have met a huge number of polite trapshooters so I should not generalize

But then I usually shoot sporting, and we are all gentlemen and Ladies.

[Irish]

Danindetroit,

The people that have told me that porting is louder were shooting ported barrels. If more sound waves are directed towards you wouldn't that be a percieved increase in sound? Just like when you shoot in enclosed spaces the soundwaves bounce back and it seems very loud vs. shooting outside. Can you expound on the mercury turning into gas? You mention it building up in your system are you referring to the body? I just installed on in my gun, this is the first time I've read about leaks.

[Danindetroit]

What brand of ported barrels? I just checked my ports yesterday they are1/8" in diameter, they are straight up. There are 16 of them. Calculate the area I think it is .196" basically a BB gun sized hole that is causing noise to rise to being unmanageable, when you have guys shooting 24" sxs's. How are they shooting sound back at me, are anyone to the side of me? Have you shot next to a Mossy, it would have to be a 500, because my barel is backbored to .775, tell me the barrel, or was it a "custom job. It is called evaporation just like water. Have you ever looked in your refridgerator and noticed your ice in your ice trays has shrunk. A solid turing into a gas is called subliming. Yes your body, you get mercury poisioning from eating certain fish. Pregnant women are advised not to eat fish from the great lakes.

[Irish]

One was shooting a Browning Cynergy and the other a Winchester. I don't believe it is unmanageable for either of them, they shot several round, but that is what they reported when asked how effective is porting. My ears aren't sensitive enough for me to pick it up, but I'm not standing right next to them either. I'm not trying to say the sound is traveling back at you, just that instead of the sound waves being focused out they now have more routes to exit hence a percieved increase in noise. Think of it this way. You have a flashlight with a cone of the same diameter on it as the light. Shine it in the dark and the light waves go out the front, now port the tube and the light now comes out the holes. You percieve more light, although it is the same amount. I haven't shot next a Mossy.

Thanks for the information on the mercury. Have you known of any to leak?

[Danindetroit]

I notice the very loud report sound of rifles with muzzle brakes, but after putting on hearing prtection I was fine. I shot regular 17 yard trap with an 835 Black 28" barrel, and shot right next to this guy for 25, he only had 1 gun I think and 2 kids, or 2 guns, and 2 kids, I am not sure. I had a bad back, and needed to sit down, and asked the guy if he wanted to borrow my gun, so he could shoot with his kids, he readily agreed, so I do not believe that my gun is some monster. I have always advised people my gun is ported, and nobody ever said they noticed. My gun comes one way ported, and it keeps the muzzle down, I thought that it might have had the ports angled, but It did not. I think anything man made can leak, and mercury is very dangerous. I imagine if this had happened to a gun with a mercury reducer shooting waterfowl close to water, ther might be a problem. You and anybody else can buy and shoot with whatever you want, whenever you want. I had a chem teacher talk about the consequences of broken thermometers, and the fact that chem teachers live 20 years less than english teachers. Do you have any proff your dead mule reducer is not leaking, just a little.

I am talking about waterfowl, and a shot at a deer in a swamp or whatever murdoc might be shooting at, with a 3 1/2 00 buck, it might be a coyote, at long range in a dense forest, the fact is anything with that much mercury is not stay in my house, because how do you know if it is escaping into the air, only when you start haveing neurological problems, and are tested at the DR. for heavy metal poisioning. There are risks in life if you want to take this one go right ahead. I do not shot an o/u, and will probably never shoot one. A nova is a pump gun famous for the button that lets you pump the action and not load a shell, so you can climb a fence while turkey huntin, or load a different round if a longer shot comes up. How does bringing up an expensive recoil reducer help the original poster? If it is just the "weight" of mercury that dampens the recoil, lead is judt slightly less dense, they could just melt it, put it into a stell pipe, and weld it shut, and have about the sme thing, with out the possible damage. In the area where I am from and I think murdoc, mercury is a big issue. I guess we are a little more concerned about any possibility of contamination. A lot of people I know fish, and it is well know about mercury. So if you are uncomfortable with our concerns you do not have to read about them.

[madmurdoc]

I checked out the dead mule reducers and they are all mechanical (no mercury involved), but they are not made for the Nova. Stock changes are not an option on a Nova. The stock and receiver are an integrated unit. If it the weight of mercury that makes it effective I can easily get some black pipe and fill it with lead or even small steel shot, but I suspect this method will throw off the balance of my gun.

I would like to know if anyone has had a leak from one of these mercury reducers. They have been around for quite a while. Liquid mercury is not a good thing at all when it's released. That's why freezer thermometers are made with springs instead of mercury. When mercury gets too cold it will expand as it moves to a solid state of matter which can damage what it is contained in. If these reducers are even capable of (not necessarily prone to) leaking then I, personally, won't take one into the woods or marshes or purchase one because heavy metal poisoning is not something to be toyed with. I would rather have a bruised shoulder than take this risk. However, if they are designed with this expansion in mind as well as the durability to last forever, I may still consider it.

For now without a definate answer from experiences one way or the other. I am not going to mess with them. I haven't run enough rounds through my Nova for its operation to be second nature to me yet anyway. (I am still in Mossy 500 operation mode.)

On the porting and sound issue, here is my take. The sound from any gun is caused by the release of gases which vibrate the surrounding air. Position to the fired gun is a large part of the report. The shooter tends to not take the brunt of this noise because the release is directed away from him/her. Someone to the side of a booming revolver will take a lot more of the noise because gas is released between the cylinder and the barrel. Porting releases the gas upward. In order for it to release straight up, it would vent through your line of sight, thus there is a slight offset. It is possible for these ports to release straight up depending on how they are cut, but it seems to me that most porting jobs are done on the radii of the barrel cross-section. This will give slightly more gas release to the sides of the barrel raising the level of report. I have stood next to ported shotguns being fired and I did not notice a difference. In our sport, noise is part of the deal. Wear the muffs and your ears will be fine, just respect your fellow shooters. If you do repect them, by not firing at the same time and so on, and they still have a problem with it they need to grow some thicker skin and realize that not everyone shoots clays with a shotgun that is whisper quiet.

That's my take on it. Take it for what it's worth, about $0.02.

[madmurdoc]

Okay, I did some quick research and figured I'd share my results.

Mercury Freezing point is about -38 degrees Fahrenheit.
Mercury Boiling point is about 672 degrees Fahrenheit.

Well, these numbers tell me I don't want one because of the outside possibility of a nice cold day, but they don't mention anything about evaporation points I know this can happen at most any temp with a loose liquid. I know a wood fire can reach well over 1000 degrees, granted I won't be inside or alive at that point , but it would probably release in my residential area. I am not going to risk the chance of it being a problem even though the conditions are pretty remote. I'll get used to the recoil or put a decent butt pad on it. I may pop for the porting a little bit later.

Thanks for your input everyone.

[K80Geoff]

NO mercury in Dead Mules....oops.

Still I have not heard of any of these devices leaking. But if it concerns you than you probably should not use it.

Too bad about the nova, no way to add a device like the non mercury filled Dead Mule . Maybe they will make a unit for the nova, now that they are selling more of them.




PS Have always referred to those mercury thingies as "Dead Mules" Hope they dont sue

[madmurdoc]

I should point out that I am a law student. j/k

I expect the accessories to pick up in the future. The line is still quite new, but I am seeing more choke tubes as well as B-Square scope mounts and some sights even replacement barrels are beginning to drop in price. I figure they are in the works.