Mle 1907-15 Remington

[johnm1]

I have an option to purchase a Remington 1907-15. It's on a rack at a loclal shop, so no pictures. Price is $400 and so far no room for negotiations. I am still working on the negotiations, but don't think it is going anywhere. The bore is in good shape with nice rifling and some shine as well as the muzzle and function is correct. Stock and metal are fine with dings and dents on the stock but no major damage and all of the parts are there. This one was not cut down. The metal is in good shape though for the life of me I can't really visualize the actual condition other than when I inspected it I was pleased. This one does have a serial number and a French acceptance mark on the receiver. Bolt and trigger guard do not have serial numbers. Not sure if that absolutely means replacment or if the French didn't serial those parts on the 'foriegn' manufactured rifles.

Completed sales are all over the place with a pristine Remington (no serial #) selling for $1,200. but most were in the $350 range. Some up to $400 but they also had matching serial numbers and were in somewhat better shape. this one was definately used and I prefer them to show use.

This isn't extremely high on my 'want' list but it does have some historical significance. I do hand load including the old Austrian 8x50R, so custom loading an 8x50 Lebel wouldn't be an issue. Though certainly another oddball caliber. I would prefer to have it at $350.00 but if $400 is the final number, is it worth it?

The fact that it is one of the 10,000 or so that was actually accepted by the French (and probably fought) may bump the value up to the $400 range.

[johnm1]

As a follow up, the rifle is still in the 07-15, 3 shot configuration without a handguard. It is not N marked. The rifle also comes with 10 rounds of 8x50 Lebel Kynoch ammo in an unopened box.

[Mike Irwin]

I had always thought that Remington made only 5-shot Betheriers for the French.

Interesting.

5 round clips are damned tough to find, I can't even imagine how tough it will be to find 3 round clips.

[johnm1]

Thanks Mike

I didn't think this one would be that hard. I appreciate your input.

[johnm1]

Apparently there is an outlet in Australia that produces reproduction 3 round clips. I also understand that the 5 round clips will function with 3 rounds.

Best I can make out from the Internet is that Remington built the 3 round rifles. Speculation is that oneof the reasons for the canceled contract was that the French wanted the 1916 upgrade (5 round clip/magazine & handguard) but weren't willing to pay for it. Nothing to support that in history but it at least leads me to believe that Remington wasn't making the 5 round clip/magazine.

At this point I would be happy to find out if the French accepted rifles lacked the serial number on the bolt and trigger guard. That would at least give me a chance it was correct. I know the French made rifles had serial numbers on the bolt and trigger guard. It is at least plausible that the forign made rifles didn't have them.

From what I can gather, the french accepted Remingtons were not used I WW 1. Ones that show use were almost certInly used in the colonies and not the front line.

Still hoping someone has more information.

[Famas]

I recall reading somewhere that approx. 5-6,000 of the rifles were shipped to France by 1916. They did receive French acceptance stamps but there was an issue about them that the French military didn't like and thus they were issued to 3rd line reservists (guards at POW camps, and the like) and supposedly never saw combat. There was some talk that elements of the 92nd I.D. and 93rd I.D. (Black US troops) in WW 1 were issued the Remington Berthiers, but I cannot find anything to verify this. I have read that some Remington made parts such as bolt parts were scavenged for use in the French made Berthier rifles. As far as I know, all the Remington Berthiers were the early 3-shot version (as you stated, mle. 1907-15).

Why were the Remingtons not issued to frontline troops? This has been debated for quite some time in certain circles, but I don't think there has ever been a consensus on exactly why. There has been some talk about possible tempering problems but there hasn't really anything verifiable on this. Certainly nothing on par with the P-14 rifle issues. I did read something many years ago about questions regarding the standard/metric conversions not being very trustworthy, including some anectdotal reports where trials revealed some chambering problems. I've also read a report stating that there may have been an issue with the bayonet not being able to properly mount. I've not been able to confirm this either.

Another clue: you mentioned this specimen does not have the "N" proof. Many non-"N" proofed rifles were quickly withdrawn front frontline service during the war, so I have to wonder if that little detail could have been a factor. Either way, if you DO purchase this rifle, be very careful what kind of charge you load into your cartridges. You would naturally want to avoid surplus ammo, which would be unwise anyway as they are so old. If I'm not mistaken, PriviPartizan makes (or made) small batches of this cartridge, though I would suspect it may be unsafe to fire in rifles not having the "N" proof.

In any case, these Remington Berthiers are valued as curios by those who collect such things....though they probably don't shoot them.

While on the subject of Remingtons, there was another Remington rifle which also made it to France during WW 1. The single-shot remington rolling block rifle saw limited service in the French army, issued to rear echelon troops and guards. These were chambered for the 8mm Lebel cartridges. I would LOVE to have one of these in my collection, and from what very few I've seen on Gunbrokers, they fetch a top dollar.

Hope this helps a little.

[johnm1]

Every little bit helps. I have read the same stories about acceptance. One explained that the Remingtons that were accepted were 're-worked and put into storage/reserves. Those that were issued were issued to colnial troops. I expect we will never know the truth.

I did buy the rifle. 2nd/3rd line/colonial issue might explain why the rifle is in such good shape.

Thanks.

[Mike Irwin]

I know the French tried to withdraw the 3-shot clip rifles and carbines from front line service pretty quickly.

I've also heard that US troops serving under French command (blacks, primarily) were given 07/15s, but it is INCREDIBLY difficult to find pictures of members of the 92nd Infantry Division in a combat setting.

Almost all pictures are staged "out of the combat area" type photos. I did find one picture, and it showed them obviously armed with French rifles (and a Chauchat!), but it was impossible to tell the specific model rifle they were using.

[johnm1]

I did get some feedback from the group over on Gunboards. The serial number on my rifle is not French. Most likely from a Hollywood prop company. Not the history I expected but a history nontheless.

It is in good shape and should shoot well. I did manage to find 4 3 shot clips this weekend. I also ordered a new bolthead. There was a chip missing from the base of it and being it was available from Liberty Tree I ordered one.

I'm on the road again and don't have access to the photos. But here is a link to the thread on Gunboards. Lots of nice people over there.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...27#post2796327

[johnm1]

A collecting buddy made a good point. If I can determine what movies this prop company provided rifles for, I might end up with a pretty neat history. His example was if this company provided rifles for Casablanca. I may do that research. Stembridge was the company name.

I would have preferred it was an rifle acceptedby the French. But it is what it is.

[Mike Irwin]

Crap.

I think the list of movies that Stembridge did not supply guns to would be a LOT shorter.

[johnm1]

Apparently Long Mountain Outfitters bought most/all of the NFA type guns and they sold them with documentation of what movies the sold firearm was in. Because there have been some firearms sold with false Stembridge history LMO will research a firearm. Not sure that applies to bolt action firearms.