H&R Young America

Winchester_73 · January 22, 2009, 07:42 PM

I have 2 questions for you curio and relic guys. First, what would be the production year of a H&R young america 22 LONG revolver SN - 469XXX? Second, does this gun need transferred (legally)? The local FFL said it did not need to be (because of age) BUT he made me transfer an Ortgies pistol which dates 1920s. I think this Young America revolver is post 1920 but I didn't argue with him since he is the FFL and I can't find a SN source for H&R anywhere. I called H&R and they don't date any of their handguns. Should I get this gun registered? What do you guys think?

TEDDY · January 22, 2009, 10:10 PM

that gun goes into the pre WW2 era I grew up on them.the H&R of today is not the H&R that made that gun.H&R is owned by marlin who is owned by Rem who is owned by Cerubus?(spelling).

Winchester_73 · January 23, 2009, 10:17 PM

Teddy:

I myself thought it was pre war, but is it pre 1900? I read somewhere that the total production run was 500k or 550k. Would you be concerned with having it transferred? Thanks

woad_yurt · January 27, 2009, 02:23 PM

I'd bet a lot of money that it's post 1900. What do you mean by "get it registered?" If you live in a place that makes one register handguns, then there's no reason why this one would be exempt.

Winchester_73 · January 27, 2009, 03:11 PM

Woad Yurt:

Yes I agree with you. The problem is that the FFL said it was a C&R which did not need registered and neither one of us could prove exactly how old it was.
Since I won't carry it or anything, I wonder if its worth taking to someone else to see if they think it should be registered. I myself don't know for sure which is the whole problem. No one seems to know for sure.

woad_yurt · January 27, 2009, 04:26 PM

Wouldn't the local law know?

James K · January 27, 2009, 04:45 PM

Under Federal law, there is a difference between an antique (made before 1 Jan 1899 or not using fixed or available ammo) and a C&R gun (made over 50 years ago as of current date or being listed as a C&R by BATFE). The former, under Federal and most state laws, does not require any paperwork. No 4473, no interstate sales questions. The latter is still a firearm and its C&R status affects only those with C&R licenses. Otherwise, it is subject to all the licensing and transfer requirements imposed on new guns.

State laws may or may not recognize antiques. Some states consider a gun made in 1890 just the same as one made in 2009; others do not.

In any case, the dealer who said that C&R items do not fall under the law may have meant antiques, but the H&R Young American went through several changes, one of which was made until 1941, a C&R but not an Antique.

I understand there is, or is going to be, a book on H&R with production dates, but I don't have it.

BTW, Wincheser 73, what state are you in? Most states don't require registration at all, in some it is voluntary.

Jim

Winchester_73 · January 27, 2009, 10:53 PM

I live in Pittsburgh PA. Go Steelers!

If I took the gun to a second guy and he said that it also did not need transferred, how can I prove that its newer than 1899? The only way is to look it up by SN, and apparently that is impossible.

Woad Yurt: I understand what you're saying. The local law IE the local FFL said that it does need transferred. With that in mind, how do I PROVE its age? Thats what I've been saying, I cannot prove it should be transferred.

Also, why pay the fee if I don't have to? I have all of my other pistols transferred cause I'm all about legality but for this revolver I don't care so much. I personally think the FFL is wrong but I have no PROOF. I don't feel like demanding a transfer for a gun I paid $40 for. Catch my drift?

woad_yurt · January 28, 2009, 09:12 PM

Sounds like you have an antique on your hands! Who are we to argue, right? Any way to get a "no transfer needed" in an email from an FFL dealer? It's nice to have that kind of thing in writing, you know, just in case the issue comes up in the future.

Winchester_73 · January 28, 2009, 09:53 PM

Correction in my last post:

Quote:

The local law IE the local FFL said that it does need transferred.

The guy said it does NOT need transferred.

Woad Yurt: thats a great idea. I'm afraid if I troubled him maybe he would change his mind lol. But what are the odds anyone would ever figure it out or cite me for it? I think I may just let it ride.

Like all of my guns, I would still like to know what year it was made. I suppose I will have to wait for a H&R book to come out. Thanks guys

woad_yurt · January 28, 2009, 10:43 PM

Go to the following link and ask for this guy, Bill Goforth, who's as expert as one can get with Iver Johnsons and H&Rs. I think he just published his H&R reference book. He'll know if anyone knows.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2

James K · January 29, 2009, 01:20 PM

You have the gun. PA has no requirement for registration of a gun you already own, so I don't see the problem for you. The burden of complying with the law regarding transfer of a firearm is on the seller, not the buyer, so you did nothing wrong no matter whether the gun is an antique or not.

It sounds like the dealer is confused between an antique, which requires no paperwork (no 4473) and a C&R item, which might depending on whether you have a C&R license and on state law. (For example, MD doesn't a C&R license.)

Jim

January 22, 2009, 07:42 PM	#1
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	H&R Young America I have 2 questions for you curio and relic guys. First, what would be the production year of a H&R young america 22 LONG revolver SN - 469XXX? Second, does this gun need transferred (legally)? The local FFL said it did not need to be (because of age) BUT he made me transfer an Ortgies pistol which dates 1920s. I think this Young America revolver is post 1920 but I didn't argue with him since he is the FFL and I can't find a SN source for H&R anywhere. I called H&R and they don't date any of their handguns. Should I get this gun registered? What do you guys think?

January 22, 2009, 10:10 PM	#2
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	registration that gun goes into the pre WW2 era I grew up on them.the H&R of today is not the H&R that made that gun.H&R is owned by marlin who is owned by Rem who is owned by Cerubus?(spelling).

January 27, 2009, 02:23 PM	#4
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	I'd bet a lot of money that it's post 1900. What do you mean by "get it registered?" If you live in a place that makes one register handguns, then there's no reason why this one would be exempt. __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

January 27, 2009, 04:26 PM	#6
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	Wouldn't the local law know? __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

January 27, 2009, 10:53 PM	#8
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	I paid $40 for the gun lol I live in Pittsburgh PA. Go Steelers! If I took the gun to a second guy and he said that it also did not need transferred, how can I prove that its newer than 1899? The only way is to look it up by SN, and apparently that is impossible. Woad Yurt: I understand what you're saying. The local law IE the local FFL said that it does need transferred. With that in mind, how do I PROVE its age? Thats what I've been saying, I cannot prove it should be transferred. Also, why pay the fee if I don't have to? I have all of my other pistols transferred cause I'm all about legality but for this revolver I don't care so much. I personally think the FFL is wrong but I have no PROOF. I don't feel like demanding a transfer for a gun I paid $40 for. Catch my drift?

January 23, 2009, 10:17 PM	#3
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Teddy: I myself thought it was pre war, but is it pre 1900? I read somewhere that the total production run was 500k or 550k. Would you be concerned with having it transferred? Thanks

January 27, 2009, 03:11 PM	#5
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Woad Yurt: Yes I agree with you. The problem is that the FFL said it was a C&R which did not need registered and neither one of us could prove exactly how old it was. Since I won't carry it or anything, I wonder if its worth taking to someone else to see if they think it should be registered. I myself don't know for sure which is the whole problem. No one seems to know for sure.

January 27, 2009, 04:45 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Under Federal law, there is a difference between an antique (made before 1 Jan 1899 or not using fixed or available ammo) and a C&R gun (made over 50 years ago as of current date or being listed as a C&R by BATFE). The former, under Federal and most state laws, does not require any paperwork. No 4473, no interstate sales questions. The latter is still a firearm and its C&R status affects only those with C&R licenses. Otherwise, it is subject to all the licensing and transfer requirements imposed on new guns. State laws may or may not recognize antiques. Some states consider a gun made in 1890 just the same as one made in 2009; others do not. In any case, the dealer who said that C&R items do not fall under the law may have meant antiques, but the H&R Young American went through several changes, one of which was made until 1941, a C&R but not an Antique. I understand there is, or is going to be, a book on H&R with production dates, but I don't have it. BTW, Wincheser 73, what state are you in? Most states don't require registration at all, in some it is voluntary. Jim

January 28, 2009, 09:12 PM	#9
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	Sounds like you have an antique on your hands! Who are we to argue, right? Any way to get a "no transfer needed" in an email from an FFL dealer? It's nice to have that kind of thing in writing, you know, just in case the issue comes up in the future. __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

January 28, 2009, 10:43 PM	#11
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	Go to the following link and ask for this guy, Bill Goforth, who's as expert as one can get with Iver Johnsons and H&Rs. I think he just published his H&R reference book. He'll know if anyone knows. http://forums.gunbroker.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2 __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

January 29, 2009, 01:20 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	You have the gun. PA has no requirement for registration of a gun you already own, so I don't see the problem for you. The burden of complying with the law regarding transfer of a firearm is on the seller, not the buyer, so you did nothing wrong no matter whether the gun is an antique or not. It sounds like the dealer is confused between an antique, which requires no paperwork (no 4473) and a C&R item, which might depending on whether you have a C&R license and on state law. (For example, MD doesn't a C&R license.) Jim