conversion cylinder ammo?

grymster2007 · October 15, 2007, 10:01 AM

I ordered the 5 ½” barrel version of the 1858 New Army 44 from Cabelas the other day. I’m thinking of ordering an R&D conversion cylinder soon. I’m pretty sure I’ll be happy with “cowboy” loads through the conversion cylinder, but ran across this from Buffalo Bore’s site:

Buffalo Bore

255gr. Gas checked soft cast bullet (1000 fps M.E.566 ft. lbs.)

200gr. JHC (Speer low velocity Gold Dot) (1100 fps M.E. 537 ft. lbs)

Quote:

Both of these 45 colt loads are designed to be a heavy loading, yet be within standard (SAAMI) pressure. As such, both of these 45 colt loads are safe and recommended to be used IN ANY post-war 45 colt that is in normal working condition. ANY post-war means ANY post-war, so please take my word for it… These loads will turn your Colt SAA or clone into a powerful carry gun.

And then this from R&Ds site:

R&D

Quote:

Use only factory loaded ‘Cowboy’ ammunition in the conversion units. Only lead bullets are to be used in the R&D conversion units, DO NOT USE JACKETED OR SEMI-JACKETEDBULLETS in any R&D conversion cylinder! The only ammunition recommended by R&D Gun Shop, Inc. is the ‘Cowboy Loads’ by BLACK HILLS AMMUNITION (smokeless) and GOEX/Black Dawge Cartridge (Black Powder).

Opinions?

sundance44s · October 15, 2007, 10:19 AM

Nothin wrong with cowboy loads ,useing my 45lc conversion Remmie cylinder my crono reads 940 fps with 35 grs of Pyrodex P under a 250 gr 45lc bullet ... a little stout for my likeing for target shooting .... I normally load just 30grs of the Goex 3f flying at 830 fps still nothing to scuff at ..a little more gentle on me and the gun though ...never tried any of the factory loaded black powder 45lc`s ...don`t have a clue what they crono at , or how much powder they put in them ..but unless they are useing fillers 30 grs is about as low as you can go with out leaveing an airspace between the powder and bullet , loading a 250 gr bullet .

Old Dragoon · October 15, 2007, 02:07 PM

"Any 45 Colt" isn't the R & D conversion cylinder, which would probably hold up, You would assume the liability, but why on earth would you want to shoot +P loads in a cowboy gun.

28-30 grns FFG or FFG in a 45 with a 250 grn bullet will do just as much damage in a personal defense mode, besides with the BP you set the BG's clothes on fire to add insult to injury.....close in that is.....

Just shoot the Cowboy loads in the R & D or load your own.

grymster2007 · October 15, 2007, 02:44 PM

Like I said, I’ll probably be happy with “cowboy” loads, but are the loads listed considered +P? The claim is that they are within standard SAAMI pressure specs and it looks like sundance44s is loading his to nearly the same energies. I’m trying to figure out what limits I want to impose on this thing. I don’t want to wear it out or risk damage or injury.

As for re-loading, I’m starting to think I might want to play around with that. I’ve read a bit and am considering asking Santa for the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Single Stage Press Master Kit.

Midway - Rock Chucker

Might that be a good place to start for someone who will likely reload a half-dozen calibers, but wouldn’t really need to pump out a lot of rounds of any given caliber?

sundance44s · October 15, 2007, 08:35 PM

Well with the pyrodex and Goex loads , the fps are pretty impressive to me ..but much easyer on the gun ..due to the lower pressure of the black powder and subs . Then there is always the clean up ...I do load some smokeless for indoor range work in the winter months ..but I always use Trailboss smokeless powder , due to it`s safer pressures when loaded to their data .( cowboy loads )
The black powder loads give quite a blast and nice flames ...enough to make a bad guy think twice about a gun fight ..Makes a 9mm sound like a pellet gun.
when I light one off at the range ..folks stop and look thinking I`m shooting a new fangled 500 Smith & Wesson ..l0l

Raider2000 · October 16, 2007, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundance44s

Well with the pyrodex and Goex loads , the fps are pretty impressive to me ..but much easyer on the gun ..due to the lower pressure of the black powder and subs . Then there is always the clean up ...I do load some smokeless for indoor range work in the winter months ..but I always use Trailboss smokeless powder , due to it`s safer pressures when loaded to their data .( cowboy loads )
The black powder loads give quite a blast and nice flames ...enough to make a bad guy think twice about a gun fight ..Makes a 9mm sound like a pellet gun.
when I light one off at the range ..folks stop and look thinking I`m shooting a new fangled 500 Smith & Wesson ..l0l

That's what I get when I light my 1860 Army or 1851 Navy off at the range down here, some guys stopped to see what I was shooting like as though I was shooting something Alien or something.

Bigger hole, More report, & LOTS of SMOKE compared to their 9mm & to one of em I was hitting 5 out of 5 shots to his 4 out of 15-18!!!
Goes to show, deliberate aimed shots win over spray & pray.

sundance44s · October 16, 2007, 06:01 AM

I let one of the 9mm shooters have a go with my Remmie one time ..when he finished the cylinder he turned to me and said ...Look first time I ever hit a bulls eye with a pistol ! Then he loaded the 9 mm and wanted me to shoot it ..I said no since in me shooting it , I couldn`t hit anything with it eaither ..It`s just a passing fad .

Raider2000 · October 16, 2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

I let one of the 9mm shooters have a go with my Remmie one time ..when he finished the cylinder he turned to me and said ...Look first time I ever hit a bulls eye with a pistol ! Then he loaded the 9 mm and wanted me to shoot it ..I said no since in me shooting it , I couldn`t hit anything with it eaither ..It`s just a passing fad .

He He, one time I had a few Boy Scouts out there with their troup leaders shooting a few 9mm, 38's & a .22 revolver while I brought my 1860 Army & my Colt 1911A1 .45.
While I was content in shooting my toys the guys handed me a Glock & said "see what you can do with this!"
Well I commenced to place all 15 shots in the X & told em that it's a nice piece but I'm not used to something that didn't kick back a little.
I handed him my .45 & all he wanted was 2 shots, & missed both times!
He handed it back to me & watched me hit really close to the X with the remining 6 shots.

I will not comment on how well he was shooting his own gear

CraigC · October 16, 2007, 12:13 PM

The Buffalo Bore loads you listed are definitely SAAMI-spec pressure level and would be safe for any post-war Colt, replica or S&W. However, I would heed R&D's warnings about what ammo to use. They built the cylinder, they know its capabilities. Kenny Howell has been in this business for a long time.

jeremyl_13 · October 29, 2007, 12:55 PM

If you replace the standard BP cylinder with a cartrige cylinder musn't you register the pistol or somthing? Sorry im new to BP pistols and not sure what legalities follow the conversion.

grymster2007 · October 29, 2007, 01:06 PM

My understanding is that if the cylinder conversion allows for loading the cartridges without removing the cylinder, then the weapon needs to be registered as a handgun. Of course, there are many people here with far broader knowledge of the law and hopefully some of them will post.

Let's hope, because it's not always prudent to go with my understanding of a legal matter.

James K · October 29, 2007, 02:24 PM

I don't know all the state laws, but in most states there is no handgun registration, so there would be no need to register a conversion. If you live in a state (like NY or NJ) that requires handgun registration, the conversion probably would have to be registered and maybe the percussion gun as well. I doubt any registration requirement is based on how the gun is loaded.

I think that a strict interpretation of federal law would call doing that conversion "manufacturing a handgun" but there is no federal law against an individual doing that unless he or she is prohibited from owning a handgun because of age, mental problems or criminal record.

Jim

Jim Watson · October 29, 2007, 02:38 PM

While I am sure the conversion cylinder is well made of good materials and is not going to blow up from even a high end SAAMI load, I don't consider that an 1858 repro constitutes a "post war" ( WW II) gun. It wouldn't blow up but it might get battered up in use.

There is no Federal requirement to register a home built gun, which is what a permanent conversion amounts to. But you cannot sell it without a manufacturer's license.

State law and local ordnance may be more repressive than Federal laws, and I don't know about that, wereever you may be.

jeremyl_13 · October 29, 2007, 03:00 PM

Thanks for the replies. I'm located in Indiana and what I meant by register was that when you purchase a handgun they call it in to NCIC for a quick background check while a BP handgun can be purchased by anyone over 21 without having to call it in. Also sorry for hijacking the thread.

October 15, 2007, 02:44 PM	#4
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	Like I said, I’ll probably be happy with “cowboy” loads, but are the loads listed considered +P? The claim is that they are within standard SAAMI pressure specs and it looks like sundance44s is loading his to nearly the same energies. I’m trying to figure out what limits I want to impose on this thing. I don’t want to wear it out or risk damage or injury. As for re-loading, I’m starting to think I might want to play around with that. I’ve read a bit and am considering asking Santa for the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Single Stage Press Master Kit. Midway - Rock Chucker Might that be a good place to start for someone who will likely reload a half-dozen calibers, but wouldn’t really need to pump out a lot of rounds of any given caliber? __________________ grym

October 29, 2007, 01:06 PM	#11
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	My understanding is that if the cylinder conversion allows for loading the cartridges without removing the cylinder, then the weapon needs to be registered as a handgun. Of course, there are many people here with far broader knowledge of the law and hopefully some of them will post. Let's hope, because it's not always prudent to go with my understanding of a legal matter. __________________ grym

October 15, 2007, 10:19 AM	#2
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Nothin wrong with cowboy loads ,useing my 45lc conversion Remmie cylinder my crono reads 940 fps with 35 grs of Pyrodex P under a 250 gr 45lc bullet ... a little stout for my likeing for target shooting .... I normally load just 30grs of the Goex 3f flying at 830 fps still nothing to scuff at ..a little more gentle on me and the gun though ...never tried any of the factory loaded black powder 45lc`s ...don`t have a clue what they crono at , or how much powder they put in them ..but unless they are useing fillers 30 grs is about as low as you can go with out leaveing an airspace between the powder and bullet , loading a 250 gr bullet .

October 15, 2007, 02:07 PM	#3
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	"Any 45 Colt" isn't the R & D conversion cylinder, which would probably hold up, You would assume the liability, but why on earth would you want to shoot +P loads in a cowboy gun. 28-30 grns FFG or FFG in a 45 with a 250 grn bullet will do just as much damage in a personal defense mode, besides with the BP you set the BG's clothes on fire to add insult to injury.....close in that is..... Just shoot the Cowboy loads in the R & D or load your own.

October 15, 2007, 08:35 PM	#5
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Well with the pyrodex and Goex loads , the fps are pretty impressive to me ..but much easyer on the gun ..due to the lower pressure of the black powder and subs . Then there is always the clean up ...I do load some smokeless for indoor range work in the winter months ..but I always use Trailboss smokeless powder , due to it`s safer pressures when loaded to their data .( cowboy loads ) The black powder loads give quite a blast and nice flames ...enough to make a bad guy think twice about a gun fight ..Makes a 9mm sound like a pellet gun. when I light one off at the range ..folks stop and look thinking I`m shooting a new fangled 500 Smith & Wesson ..l0l

October 16, 2007, 06:01 AM	#7
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	I let one of the 9mm shooters have a go with my Remmie one time ..when he finished the cylinder he turned to me and said ...Look first time I ever hit a bulls eye with a pistol ! Then he loaded the 9 mm and wanted me to shoot it ..I said no since in me shooting it , I couldn`t hit anything with it eaither ..It`s just a passing fad .

October 16, 2007, 12:13 PM	#9
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	The Buffalo Bore loads you listed are definitely SAAMI-spec pressure level and would be safe for any post-war Colt, replica or S&W. However, I would heed R&D's warnings about what ammo to use. They built the cylinder, they know its capabilities. Kenny Howell has been in this business for a long time.

October 29, 2007, 12:55 PM	#10
jeremyl_13 Junior Member Join Date: October 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 3	If you replace the standard BP cylinder with a cartrige cylinder musn't you register the pistol or somthing? Sorry im new to BP pistols and not sure what legalities follow the conversion.

October 29, 2007, 02:24 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know all the state laws, but in most states there is no handgun registration, so there would be no need to register a conversion. If you live in a state (like NY or NJ) that requires handgun registration, the conversion probably would have to be registered and maybe the percussion gun as well. I doubt any registration requirement is based on how the gun is loaded. I think that a strict interpretation of federal law would call doing that conversion "manufacturing a handgun" but there is no federal law against an individual doing that unless he or she is prohibited from owning a handgun because of age, mental problems or criminal record. Jim

October 29, 2007, 02:38 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	While I am sure the conversion cylinder is well made of good materials and is not going to blow up from even a high end SAAMI load, I don't consider that an 1858 repro constitutes a "post war" ( WW II) gun. It wouldn't blow up but it might get battered up in use. There is no Federal requirement to register a home built gun, which is what a permanent conversion amounts to. But you cannot sell it without a manufacturer's license. State law and local ordnance may be more repressive than Federal laws, and I don't know about that, wereever you may be.

October 29, 2007, 03:00 PM	#14
jeremyl_13 Junior Member Join Date: October 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 3	Thanks for the replies. I'm located in Indiana and what I meant by register was that when you purchase a handgun they call it in to NCIC for a quick background check while a BP handgun can be purchased by anyone over 21 without having to call it in. Also sorry for hijacking the thread.