Contemplating Training - Need Input

[ethernectar]

I'm thinking about getting some sort of training. I'd like to improve my shooting as well as to learn some of the more techincal aspects of handgun/personal defense shooting. What should I look for in a training center/course? I'm in central CA and could travel pretty much within the state, or even into eastern NV without much of a problem. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

matt

[ManChicken]

While I have no specific recommendations of places in your area(s), here's what I can offer generically:

Shop around! Don't be afraid to talk to many places offering training and ask specific questions about what topics they cover, and also let them know what you're wanting to get out of a class. If they give vague answers or don't want to take a few minutes to talk, then move on to someone else.

Ask about class size and how long it lasts; you can usually make a judgement by class size alone as to whether or not it's just a training farm cranking through students or a place that is really passionate about teaching the subject at hand.

When I was browsing for a concealed carry course a month ago, I found several websites of local outfits offering classes, and they all said pretty much the same thing.. "NRA certified, get your certificate to get a CCW permit!".

It wasn't until I grilled some of them about what they actually teach, and more importantly what kinds of things I was hoping to learn, that I found an instructor that fit the bill.. and he was actually happy as well, because my telling him specific reasons I was searching for a class and what I wanted to get out of it also let him know that I wasn't the average wingnut just out to get a certificate in order to run out and get a CCW permit. He was enthusiastic right off the bat about my having bothered to ask. I think in the end the class was more productive because we were on the same page from the start.

Anyway.. just my $.02 of advice.

[kcrowder]

Visit www.internationaltactical.com, it's easy to get to by heading south on "5". You will get all the handgun, shotgun, rifle training you will ever need. Scott Reitz runs the show, no internet BS experience, but real life stuff from 28 years at LAPD.

[Jungle Work]

I'm new to this board, but my $.02 worth is that the more and varied training you have with firearms the better off you are.
Gunsite is not that far from you, that is if you have the money and the time, it is some good training.
Glad to see some one who belives they can use training. It looks like Kcrowder has a plan.

Jungle Work

[zappadragon]

I too am looking for some training but lack the funds right now. Is there any websites or books than do a good job od explaining the basics? I have the time to practice at the range and want to be somewhat good for when I can afford some training.

[David Armstrong]

I'll second Scott Reitz. I haven't trained with him, but others I trust recommend him highly. Also in that area with a good rep is Greg Block.

[accordingtome]

man thats gonna cost a lot.. hmmm a cheaper way to do it is to go Rent Rambo I II III, Commando, Sniper, Navy seals, Platoon and full metal jacket. Not only will that teach you how to shoot better, it will also teach you how to kill 50 people without getting shot once.
just kidding..
I have been thinking about some sort of training too. But it is expensive. Good luck

[CB3]

I have only had local training, which has been relatively helpful, meaning I got about what I paid for.

I too am interested in getting to a nationally recognized school and paying the bigger bucks for a more qualified and intense course.

I understand Front Sight, outside of Las Vegas, is a very good place for training and not too far from you. They are aggressive in their marketing, and sometimes offer free training on promotions, including joining Gun Owners of America, as I did a few years ago. The concept is one of a gunners community. In addition to the shooting and training ranges, they are putting in an airport, homes and other facilties to make this a huge gun-friendly community in the middle of the desert. You will get lots of promotional offers for buying property and getting training, through "memberships". Some of their free training, like their one-day full auto course (guns and ammo provided) are fun, but fairly obviously an excuse to get you there to get you excited about the community concept.

If you choose, you can avoid all the rest of the hoopla and just pay for some good training, but the rest of the stuff would be interesting to me if not too time consuming.

http://www.frontsight.com/

My next suggestion is for you to join the International Defensive Pistol Association, local affiliate nearest you. While gaming with guns is not really training, the more you can shoot in defensive scenarios, the sharper you will stay (or become). It is definitely better than standing in a lane at a range and banging away at bullseyes.

http://www.idpa.com/menu.htm

CB3

[David Armstrong]

I've seen a few posts here that talks about how expensive firearms training is. It doesn't have to be. Yes, there is some training that is going to set you back a pretty good chunk of cash. But there are other places and people where you can get some good basic instruction for a good price. Contact the NRA. Maybe not the most high-speed tactical training, but the basic pistol or personal protection class is usually under a hundred dollars, and sometimes even free. Other places might charge around $100 per day. Now really, where else are you going to get to have a lot of fun AND learn a skill for about $12 an hour?

[OBIWAN]

If you are serious, you can certainly put away the money required.

especially if you do not have to travel

It is worth it to at least attend a basic level I class

[stickslinger]

Thunder Ranch Oregon. It's in Lakeview now. I took the five day defensive handgun one when they were located in TX. I'll be in Oregon next week for their Urban Rifle class.

I thought I knew how to handle a pistol before I went, even though the only formal training I had had up until that point was in the military. I was amazed at how inept I really was. Learned a lot and well worth it.

[U.F.O.]

CB3, is FrontSight the place where they jam the Scientology sales pitch on you in addition to firearms training?

U.F.O.

[Don Gwinn]

That seems to depend on who you ask. It's been alleged more than once, yes, but there are also TFLers who have been there and report that no one talked about Scientology.

Of course, it could have changed one way or the other in the time between different members' attendance.

[U.F.O.]

Thx. Don G. for the clarification.

U.F.O.

[RedPhnx]

what about a place like blackwater usa? has any one heard good or bad about them? They offer a Tactical pistol and shotgun class, the downside is that they are pricey and there about 15 hours away from me.

[Bushwhacker]

Steve Silverman runs the FR&I training course here is his website: www.f-r-i.com and he travels to different places around the country, he will go anywhere for a min of students, I forgot what it was but think it was 6, not sure contact him directly for yourself on setting up a course in your town. I tried to get one set up but none of the ranges or gun clubs would allow it I plan on going to one of his Level II (handgun) and also want to attend one of his shotgun classes.....as soon as my health gets better.....

[Double Naught Spy]

I have a bunch of money invested in introductions, safety rules, and course descriptions from the various places I have had classes. Running around 1 hour or a little more and at rates of $100-200 per day, the money issue becomes clear.

Ideally, it would be good to find a place you and and from whom you can take higher level classes if you think they would be beneficial to you after your initial class(es). Bouncing around between schools can mean having to repeat lower classes as so schools either don't trust previous training from other schools and don't know if they can trust you being honest in saying how well you did at said class. No doubt, this is a liability issue and they don't want you attempting tactics for which you may not be up to speed because your training elsewhere was insufficient as a needed prerequisite.

I took a class in Dallas that had an opening and closing shooting skills test. There was a guy there who was a veteran of several gun schools in the US, even some supposed higher level classes, and he failed the skills test both times. This guy was the specific reason why gun schools are often inclined to to accept training at other schools to satisfy higher class level prerequisites. The guy's gun handling skills certainly scared the hell out of me. I was glad not to be on his squad.

With only extemely rare exceptions, it is tough to believe what people tell you when it comes to how wonderful X gun school was. The exceptions are those few times when you actually hear/read reviews that are not flattering about the shooting/instruction/safety experience. My belief is that most gun students are not experienced as gun handlers and/or not experienced enough to evaluate clearly what they experienced. No doubt many folks are just so terribly happy to be in a class, shooting with lots of others, that they get a sense of elation and having a good time even when the shooting instruction is not up to par.

One such example can be found on www.tacticalforums.com, in a thread entitled "Commentary on daneburns, part II" Pan down to where Larry Vickers reports what he learned from a retired SWAT officer who attended a class. The same class is discussed here as well http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic...emaster+dallas

You will find much of the exchange that follows being very contrary. Some folks thought the class was great and others thought the class was far from adequate. How can people have such opposing views for the same class? Beats me. What it showed me, however, was that people can talk very positively about a class when obviously it wasn't a good class according to some of the participants.

If at all possible, avoid the ultra macho drill instructor types who seem to get a certain personal benefit from yelling at students and embarrassing them when they have done poorly. This does not make for a positive learning experience, contrary to what is claimed about trying to force the student to work under pressure as would happen in a real fight. For example, if the student is just learning how to do combat reloads, having somebody standing behind the student and yelling at the student so as to ramp up the pressure isn't proper teaching. Ramping up the pressure is great when you are dealing with a person who already has a given skill mastered. Otherwise, it is just frustrating to the student and the desired skills development result won't be attained. I have seen this bit of poor instructor behavior at both local schools and nationally well known schools.

Especially in a beginning class or a class where many of the folks are citizen self protectors, a more positive learning environment will benefit the student more than with the drill instructor types. I found that the folks at the old Thunder Ranch (and I assume it will continue at the new one) and Ken Hackathorn do very well with this concept. I understand that there are several others out there who also teach in a positive manner. If time and distance all, see if you can visit and observe a class in progress from a school or instructor from who you are thinking of taking instruction. In that manner, you can hopefully learn enough to determine if it is the teaching environment in which you would like to learn and spend a lot of money.

[huntershooter]

>> is FrontSight the place where they jam the Scientology sales pitch on you in addition to firearms training?

No. I've taken a few classes at Front Sight and never witnessed the tiniest hint of any of that. FS is one of the best shooting schools around. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.

[Sweatnbullets]

Four day handgun course at Front Sight through a cerificate on E-bay for around $50. No discussion of religion, just solid fundamentals.

[Phil306]

what about a place like blackwater usa?

I've been there 3 times and going back there twice this year. Blackwater is one of THE great training institutions. You cannot go wrong training there.

[ptstar]

try these guys out, I took their class and was very satisfied. Cost 75.00, signed up at a local gun show with them and only paid 25.00.


http://www.civilianarmstraining.com/

call them, speak with Tim. Tell them Frank L. in Corona sent you.


Frank