357 Sig and 40 S&W Why no round nose ammo

[dontcatchmany]

I have been attempting to find the two calibers mentioned in a Round nose ammo.

Both calibers have FMJ but with a flat nose.

Is there a reason for not having the round nose bullet?

Thanks in advance.

[CDW4ME]

357 Sig & 40 were invented after / for modern pistol designs (Glock) which could feed flat nose ammo. (My guess)

[FrankenMauser]

Cartridge overall length.
Without the blunted nose, the cartridges would be too long to function in a magazine.
And if one were to create a round nose profile for the cartridges, it would be ridiculously stubby anyway.

[dontcatchmany]

Thanks, both replies make sense now.

The reason I am looking for the round nose is because I am getting some "self healing" targets and they will not last very long with JHP so I started looking for round nose and realized that both calibers in FMJ were flat nosed. Never had given it much though and I shoot a lot of 40 and 357 Sig. The target producers got me to thinking about a round nose.

Dang, as old as I am I still learn something every day...

[74A95]

There are some round nose bullets that will fit both these calibers that are available to handloaders.

Corbon's glaser safety slug and powerball bullets in these calibers are RN.

[dontcatchmany]

Yep, I see the bullets in round nose (Berry's comes to mind), but I do not hand load.....do not need another hobby...lol!

Thanks folks!

[dahermit]

...but I do not hand load.....do not need another hobby...lol!

Then you are independently wealthy or you do not shoot much. I shoot 72 rounds every day, May through October (until it gets too cold outside for bare hands and fogs my shooting glasses) and I find that along with handloading, I have to cast bullets to afford it. In short, if I want to shoot that much, I have no choice but to handload and cast bullets...the three hobbies go together in my case and have since the sixties.

[tallball]

My FiL prefers to reload 40 caliber using round-nosed bullets. He feels that they feed a little easier.

[dontcatchmany]

dahermit,

I shoot practically every day.

This year I built a pistol range in my back yard, and I do shoot a lot...actually save money by not having to drive 25 miles one way and paying range fees and I do save a lot of time. I am retired and have several hobbies that take time. Shooting is a hobby as well as fishing and I have a decent sized vegetable garden and feed some in my community who live on fixed incomes. I am also involved with an organization that takes our active duty military fishing.....and I also have to go to way too many doctor's appointments.

I asked a simple question and got a couple good answers to that question. I did not expect to get a silly retort for not reloading.

Not wealthy, but I was able to retire comfortably at age 57 because I worked diligently for many years to do so. Enjoy your reloading as it must be the only thing you do.

[44 AMP]

The .40 S&W was specifically designed to fit and function in 9mm frame size guns. The flat tip wasn't for better energy transmission, though it does that, to a degree, it was to use the longest heaviest bullets practical and still keep within 9mm magazine length.

Since the fmjs do not expand, I can't really see where a flat tip could make much if any difference to the self healing target.

[tallball]

Thank you 44 AMP for the excellent answer.

[dontcatchmany]

Thank You 44 AMP!

I was intending to shoot the flat nose. May have to replace targets sooner but now I have answers to why no round nose for those calibers.

Again, Thanks!

[SonOfScubaDiver]

I shoot 40 quite often, and I too have wondered why the bullets are flat nosed.

[T. O'Heir]

RN's aren't scary looking so no PD wants 'em. PD's whined and cried about .38 Special RN's bouncing off windshields etc, until their were allowed SWC's. Then they whined and cried about criminals having more mag capacity until they were allowed pistols. Not a chance they'd buy a pistol that used an RN.
RN's don't do what an HP will do either. An FP is the same shape as an HP.
"...modern pistol designs (Glock) which could feed flat nose ammo..." Like a 1911A1, you mean. Mine feeds FP's like hot dam.
"...the cartridges would be too long to function..." Nope. SAAMI Max OAL for .40 S&W is 1.135". 1.169" for 9mm Para.

[FrankenMauser]

"...the cartridges would be too long to function..." Nope. SAAMI Max OAL for .40 S&W is 1.135". 1.169" for 9mm Para.

There's more to magazine geometry and feeding into a chamber than a single measurement.
You know that very well. You're just being deliberately obtuse in every thread you find, as of late.

[Nanuk]

RN's aren't scary looking so no PD wants 'em. PD's whined and cried about .38 Special RN's bouncing off windshields etc, until their were allowed SWC's. Then they whined and cried about criminals having more mag capacity until they were allowed pistols.

Whined and cried? Please....... I guess you don't do facts.

[rc]

I believe you can get round nose 40 bullets to reload but no factory ones. The bullet is meant to be short and fat to fit in 9mm guns and a round nose would cause the bullet to have to be seated too far back with standard 180 grain weight bullets and pressures would spike. The 357 sig has a different problem. Because it has a short neck on it that has to hold the bullets, rounded bullets don't stay in place and will set back from recoil spiking pressures. Guys that hand load for 357 sig have had problems finding suitable projectiles. The hornady 124 XTP for example is fine but the hornady 115 grain round nose is not. While you can certainly reload any bullet shape you can find, sometimes it's not a good idea for safety reasons. There is another caveat here. Ammo companies can't make armor piercing pistol rounds and if you put a pointy light 9mm bullet in the 357 sig and pump it up to high speeds it might become a prohibited round like fmj 22 caliber five n seven ammo. That's why you only see soft tip ammo for that one commercially. For the same reasons stated you will see 130 grain round nose 38 special factory ammo but never a full house 130 grain FMJ 357 magnum. rc

[74A95]

Originally Posted by rc

I believe you can get round nose 40 bullets to reload but no factory ones. The bullet is meant to be short and fat to fit in 9mm guns and a round nose would cause the bullet to have to be seated too far back with standard 180 grain weight bullets and pressures would spike. WRONG

The 357 sig has a different problem. Because it has a short neck on it that has to hold the bullets, rounded bullets don't stay in place and will set back from recoil spiking pressures. WRONG

Guys that hand load for 357 sig have had problems finding suitable projectiles. The hornady 124 XTP for example is fine but the hornady 115 grain round nose is not. While you can certainly reload any bullet shape you can find, sometimes it's not a good idea for safety reasons. A reasonable answer. But there are suitable bullets if you bother looking.


There is another caveat here. Ammo companies can't make armor piercing pistol rounds and if you put a pointy light 9mm bullet in the 357 sig and pump it up to high speeds it might become a prohibited round like fmj 22 caliber five n seven ammo. WRONG

That's why you only see soft tip ammo for that one commercially.

For the same reasons stated you will see 130 grain round nose 38 special factory ammo but never a full house 130 grain FMJ 357 magnum. WRONG

Amazing answers!

[44 AMP]

The bullet is meant to be short and fat to fit in 9mm guns and a round nose would cause the bullet to have to be seated too far back with standard 180 grain weight bullets and pressures would spike. WRONG

Pressures only spike when a bullet gets seated deeper than intended, for a given powder charge. Rounds with longer bullets do need to be seated deeper, BUT the powder charge is also adjusted, to compensate for the deeper seating depth. Factories do know this.

The 357 sig has a different problem. Because it has a short neck on it that has to hold the bullets, rounded bullets don't stay in place and will set back from recoil spiking pressures. WRONG

Round noses make zero difference on the area of the bullet held by the case neck. Bullets that don't stay in place during recoil do not do so because of their nose shape. Period. Other factors are responsible.

There is another caveat here. Ammo companies can't make armor piercing pistol rounds and if you put a pointy light 9mm bullet in the 357 sig and pump it up to high speeds it might become a prohibited round like fmj 22 caliber five n seven ammo. WRONG

Armor piercing rounds are prohibited by law, and what puts them into that category is bullet construction, NOT velocity.

For the same reasons stated you will see 130 grain round nose 38 special factory ammo but never a full house 130 grain FMJ 357 magnum. WRONG

You see 130gr FMJ .38 Special ammo because it is a load requested by the military. The reason you never see 130gr FMJ .357 Magnum ammo is simple market economics. No one wants it. So ammo makers don't offer it.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by rc

Ammo companies can't make armor piercing pistol rounds and if you put a pointy light 9mm bullet in the 357 sig and pump it up to high speeds it might become a prohibited round like fmj 22 caliber five n seven ammo. That's why you only see soft tip ammo for that one commercially.

Incorrect. Whether or not ammo is considered "armor piercing" under federal law is entirely dependent on bullet construction; it's NOT determined by bullet shape, velocity, nor actual performance against any particular type of body armor.

This is a deliberate feature of the law; in response to pressure from the NRA and other gun-rights groups, Congress wrote the law so that it could not be abused to categorically ban commonplace high-powered rifle ammo, rifled shotgun slugs, or existing small-caliber high-velocity centerfire pistol rounds such as 7.63 Mauser.

Here is the concise legal definition from 18 USC § 921(a)(17).

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

AFAIK the 5.7x28 SS190 FMJ load offered by FNH qualifies as armor-piercing under the law due to the internal construction of the bullets, and since FNH openly advertises SS190 as being deliberately designed to pierce body armor, they aren't going to waste time asking for a "sporting purposes" exemption under (C).

[rc]

B.S. A round nose bullet has more mass farther back and they tend to be longer overall. This requires deeper seating so they will fit in your magazine. A 200 grain 10mm bullet is not intended for 40S&W due to space constraints, just read a speer reloading manual. If you wanted to load round nose, you may want to drop to 155 grains in 40S&W. Now the 357 sig is notorious for losing case neck tension with the wrong choice of bullets. If you disagree with me you don't know what you are talking about. Round nose bullets have to be seated so deep, the part that would normally be held tight in say a 9mm case is below the neck in the 357 sig and the tapered portion of the bullet is all the case has to hold onto. There has been a few articles written on the subject by people more knowledgeable than myself.

And as far are armor piercing handgun projectiles, don't be so foolish as to believe ammo companies don't take body armor penetration into consideration when designing ammo to sale the public. A 38 super shooting 90 grain round nose at above 1500 fps would be hard for a vest to stop. Just because it would not be a traditional load doesn't mean people would not buy it.

rc

[74A95]

rc, the world is not as simple as you think.

RN bullets can and do work in both the 40 and 357 Sig.

I've loaded 5 different RN bullets in the 40. Berrys (1), Bayou (2), RMR (1), Ibejiheads (1). One of the Bayou bullets was 200 grains!

With respect to the 40 S&W, 200 grain bullets work just fine. I can't find any reference to 200 grain bullets in the 40 in the Speer manual. What page or section is that in?

Apparently Alliant, Hornady, Hodgdon, Nosler, Western Powders (Ramshot, Accurate) and Vihtavuori didn't get the memo because they have load data for 200 grain bullets in the 40 S&W.

Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Doubletap offer 200 grain bullets in their 40 S&W lineup.

Hornady has load data for their 100 grain RN, 115 grain RN and 147 grain RN bullets in the 357 Sig. It all comes down to bullet nose shape, and there are several short nose bullets that work in the 357 Sig. Anything used in the 380 qualifies.

As far as the armor piercing ammo goes, again, you're clueless. Read post #19 again.

[glockman55]

Pow'R Ball are round,,, Attachment 106525

[44 AMP]

why no round nose ammo? another reason is simply because the factory(s) aren't loading them. Why? ask them, but I suspect its a matter of market demand.

I can remember a time when there were "no" hollowpoints, as factory loaded ammunition. Handloaders could (And we did) load hollow points, but the big ammo makers didn't. Not in auto pistol calibers, and rarely in revolver rounds.

The only hollow points commonly found were .22LR.

Then Super Vel came along, and the game changed.

There's a ton of reloading bullets you can use in the .357Sig and the .40S&W. The factories load what they think will be popular. Often they are right.