The happy medium between match benchrest

Abe Normal · July 5, 1999, 10:43 PM

I found the post below on Tom Bowers board, and it's one of those questions I've been itching to ask but just haven't been able to put it quite as well as this guy Marky Mark.

Hi, guys. I'm looking for the happy medium between match benchrest reloading (super attention to every detail) and
high-volume production for rifle ammo. I have a Dillon 650 with casefeeder, and I regularly reload thousands of rounds for my
pistols and subguns, but I would like to have a bit more accuracy out of my rifle ammo.

I'm looking for the collective wisdom on which of the following steps is most helpful for accuracy:

1) weighing powder charges by hand (with tubular powder, the Dillon powder measure drops +/- 0.3 grains of nominal)

2) sorting components by weight

3) cleaning the primer pocket

4) deburring and uniforming the flash hole

5) being super anal on the case trim (I don't know to what tolerance the Dillon electric trimmer holds case lengths, but I've been
trimming to +/- .002" of trim-to length by hand... and it's getting old)

6) being super anal on the case-mouth deburring

7) neck turning

8) using brass with very slight dents (my semi-auto beats up the brass with amazing consistency -- I would reject ~50% of my
own empties if they had to be dent-free)

9) using match HPBT bullets versus factory-new (not pulled) FMJ-BT bullets.

10) using "benchrest" primers instead of regular primers

11) using "match" brass, new brass, 'range pickup' brass, or once-fired military brass

My question really is: which of these gives a high return (in accuracy) for the time and money invested? I want good ammo, not
great ammo, and I'd like to be able to make a lot of it without mortgaging the house and still have time left over to shoot some.

Thanks a lot!
Abe

------------------
If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

flatlander · July 6, 1999, 09:31 AM

Boy, you get your money's worth when you post a question, don't you? At ranges of 100-200yds. you can shoot any of the good quality commercial varmint bullets and get fine accuracy without weighing bullets. The 55FMJBT bullet is not worth the effort to load if you're looking for more than plinking accuracy. Commercial WW or R-P cases are hard to beat for accuracy and life span, but if you've got the time, good 90's headstamp LC 223 is very good also. It's lighter than the last batch of WW I bought, and tougher than nails in an AR. The steps I take to prep LC cases are- tumble, FL size, trim on Gracey(+or-.002" isn't going to matter much if you don't crimp), use K&M 4 degree chamfering tool or Lyman VLD reamer on case mouths, inside debur flash hole, uniform primer pockets. These cases will shoot right with the WW prepped the same out to 300yds. For 600yds., I'm going to the WW simply because I've found better neck thickness uniformity than with the LC. I sort 600yd. cases by weight into lots of +or-.5 gr. In a case the size of the 223, powder charges +or-.3gr. may be excessive for best accuracy, but running 10 rounds over a chronograph will give you a good idea of how much spread you're getting. Check that against 10 rounds of the same load with weighed charges to see how much difference it really makes. Primer selection can make a difference - try several different brands once you find a load that performs. I've used some of the Fed. Gold Medal match primers, and the chronograph doesn't show any advantage; in fact, the spread was higher than with standard WSR's! My Stolle Panda LV in 6PPC shoots into less than .1" with either primer, using H322 thrown with a measure. Go to a benchrest match sometime and watch these guys load for the next match - they all use powder measures. To win at these matches, most of the time you've got to shoot groups at 100yds. than average less than a tenth of an inch. For a production chamber, there's very little advantage to turning case necks, unless your brass is really inconsistent to begin with; even then, thinning the neck wall will just give more problems than it solves. To take advantage of turning, you need a tight-necked chamber so that your thin necks don't just slop around in a standard SAAMI diminsioned chamber neck. Hope this answers some of your questions. If you've got more, feel free to e-mail me.

Cheapo · July 7, 1999, 03:47 PM

#9 will give you the greatest and most reliable improvement in group size.

FMJBTs are difficult to manufacture with a consistently match-grade heel, compared to HPBTs. Even 20 years ago, sloppy old hunting HPs frequently gave better accuracy than military FMJ projectiles.

Extensive experiments with intentionally deformed bullets in the early 20th Century showed that bullet noses and ogives can be badly out of whack with little effect on accuracy. Nick the heel of the bullet, or have it oh-so-slightly out of square, and accuracy goes to pot fast.

Bullet-case misalignment (runout) has been shown by experiment to be a problem only above...oops, forgot the measurement--something like .003, maybe a lot bigger. But there is an *upper* limit to accuracy dropoff from tilted bullets, and that's a +2 MOA effect.

Can't address the other factors, as my loads when 1 MOA at 200 yards--iron sights!--after deburring flash holes and trimming (trimming is more of a uniform crimp maneuver) the cases. I stopped after that.

flatlander · July 8, 1999, 12:18 AM

Cheapo mentioned runout, and I totally spaced it when I posted my reply. If you upgrade only one item on your list of loading equipment, a benchrest type seater die - either the Forster Ultra BR or Redding Competition BR seater would be a good choice. The ease of changing seating depth and the added precision of the floating seating chambers these dies offer make experimenting with changing OAL simple. Straighter ammo just has to shoot better, how much better would depend on how good a job your standard seater does.

Abe Normal · July 12, 1999, 10:30 PM

Many thanks Cheapo and flatlander I believe I'll try deburring flash holes and see what that yields.
As to weighing cases. If the case has been trimmed, doesn't that throw everything off as to weighing for 'sameness'?

Again, many thanks for your thoughts on these matters.

Abe

------------------
If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

Cheapo · July 13, 1999, 11:39 PM

Abe--

When weighing cases, you first eliminate all variables. If you trim some, trim all before comparing them. For sake of uniformity, and to make the cased fit into my Wilson trimmer's bushing thingys, I always size and decap first as well.

A resized case trimmed *can* be lighter than a fired and not-sized case which is trimmed.

Of course, that means you don't compare fired cases with expended primers in, with resized cases that have been decapped.

With one batch of cases I worked with, trimming them increased the weight uniformity. Why? Here's a clue--I trimmed them because some cases would barely crimp, and others would crimp to the point of buckling the neck. All the same brand, but perhaps from different lots, and it had been fired only once. Case length was quite inconsistent!

A friend of mine gets quite decent groups from most of his rifles. Besides trimming and uniforming the flash holes (in the powder chamber side, not the primer side), he uniforms case necks by outside turning, but only to the point of getting a cut on 1/2 to 2/3 of the neck. The neatest little tool I've seen for doing this is made by Doyle Gracie, but I have no contact data. It was about a hunnert bucks 12 years ago... But it is also fast, repeatable, reliable and nearly indestructible!

------------------
Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

flatlander · July 14, 1999, 12:57 PM

The phone for Match Prep, which is Doyle Gracey's business, is 805-822-5383. If you're going to go to the time and trouble to sort cases by weight, you need to do all your prep work first so that any metal that's going to be removed by trimming, chamfering, deburring, uniforming, etc., is done first. I'm not saying that weighing won't help, but it's not likely to be give noticable results until you shoot at least 300yds+. I only sort by weight for my 600yd. loads.

Abe Normal · July 14, 1999, 11:49 PM

Well that settles it for me, I'll not be weighing cases any time too soon as the shooter is just not capable of hitting a aircraft carrier at 600 yds much less some little piece paper! Although the rifle in the right hands could (and has) with no problem.

Again many thanks guy's,

------------------
Abe

If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

July 5, 1999, 10:43 PM	#1
Abe Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 1999 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 104	I found the post below on Tom Bowers board, and it's one of those questions I've been itching to ask but just haven't been able to put it quite as well as this guy Marky Mark. Hi, guys. I'm looking for the happy medium between match benchrest reloading (super attention to every detail) and high-volume production for rifle ammo. I have a Dillon 650 with casefeeder, and I regularly reload thousands of rounds for my pistols and subguns, but I would like to have a bit more accuracy out of my rifle ammo. I'm looking for the collective wisdom on which of the following steps is most helpful for accuracy: 1) weighing powder charges by hand (with tubular powder, the Dillon powder measure drops +/- 0.3 grains of nominal) 2) sorting components by weight 3) cleaning the primer pocket 4) deburring and uniforming the flash hole 5) being super anal on the case trim (I don't know to what tolerance the Dillon electric trimmer holds case lengths, but I've been trimming to +/- .002" of trim-to length by hand... and it's getting old) 6) being super anal on the case-mouth deburring 7) neck turning 8) using brass with very slight dents (my semi-auto beats up the brass with amazing consistency -- I would reject ~50% of my own empties if they had to be dent-free) 9) using match HPBT bullets versus factory-new (not pulled) FMJ-BT bullets. 10) using "benchrest" primers instead of regular primers 11) using "match" brass, new brass, 'range pickup' brass, or once-fired military brass My question really is: which of these gives a high return (in accuracy) for the time and money invested? I want good ammo, not great ammo, and I'd like to be able to make a lot of it without mortgaging the house and still have time left over to shoot some. Thanks a lot! Abe ------------------ If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

July 6, 1999, 09:31 AM	#2
flatlander Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 1999 Posts: 120	Boy, you get your money's worth when you post a question, don't you? At ranges of 100-200yds. you can shoot any of the good quality commercial varmint bullets and get fine accuracy without weighing bullets. The 55FMJBT bullet is not worth the effort to load if you're looking for more than plinking accuracy. Commercial WW or R-P cases are hard to beat for accuracy and life span, but if you've got the time, good 90's headstamp LC 223 is very good also. It's lighter than the last batch of WW I bought, and tougher than nails in an AR. The steps I take to prep LC cases are- tumble, FL size, trim on Gracey(+or-.002" isn't going to matter much if you don't crimp), use K&M 4 degree chamfering tool or Lyman VLD reamer on case mouths, inside debur flash hole, uniform primer pockets. These cases will shoot right with the WW prepped the same out to 300yds. For 600yds., I'm going to the WW simply because I've found better neck thickness uniformity than with the LC. I sort 600yd. cases by weight into lots of +or-.5 gr. In a case the size of the 223, powder charges +or-.3gr. may be excessive for best accuracy, but running 10 rounds over a chronograph will give you a good idea of how much spread you're getting. Check that against 10 rounds of the same load with weighed charges to see how much difference it really makes. Primer selection can make a difference - try several different brands once you find a load that performs. I've used some of the Fed. Gold Medal match primers, and the chronograph doesn't show any advantage; in fact, the spread was higher than with standard WSR's! My Stolle Panda LV in 6PPC shoots into less than .1" with either primer, using H322 thrown with a measure. Go to a benchrest match sometime and watch these guys load for the next match - they all use powder measures. To win at these matches, most of the time you've got to shoot groups at 100yds. than average less than a tenth of an inch. For a production chamber, there's very little advantage to turning case necks, unless your brass is really inconsistent to begin with; even then, thinning the neck wall will just give more problems than it solves. To take advantage of turning, you need a tight-necked chamber so that your thin necks don't just slop around in a standard SAAMI diminsioned chamber neck. Hope this answers some of your questions. If you've got more, feel free to e-mail me.

July 7, 1999, 03:47 PM	#3
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	#9 will give you the greatest and most reliable improvement in group size. FMJBTs are difficult to manufacture with a consistently match-grade heel, compared to HPBTs. Even 20 years ago, sloppy old hunting HPs frequently gave better accuracy than military FMJ projectiles. Extensive experiments with intentionally deformed bullets in the early 20th Century showed that bullet noses and ogives can be badly out of whack with little effect on accuracy. Nick the heel of the bullet, or have it oh-so-slightly out of square, and accuracy goes to pot fast. Bullet-case misalignment (runout) has been shown by experiment to be a problem only above...oops, forgot the measurement--something like .003, maybe a lot bigger. But there is an upper limit to accuracy dropoff from tilted bullets, and that's a +2 MOA effect. Can't address the other factors, as my loads when 1 MOA at 200 yards--iron sights!--after deburring flash holes and trimming (trimming is more of a uniform crimp maneuver) the cases. I stopped after that.

July 8, 1999, 12:18 AM	#4
flatlander Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 1999 Posts: 120	Cheapo mentioned runout, and I totally spaced it when I posted my reply. If you upgrade only one item on your list of loading equipment, a benchrest type seater die - either the Forster Ultra BR or Redding Competition BR seater would be a good choice. The ease of changing seating depth and the added precision of the floating seating chambers these dies offer make experimenting with changing OAL simple. Straighter ammo just has to shoot better, how much better would depend on how good a job your standard seater does.

July 12, 1999, 10:30 PM	#5
Abe Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 1999 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 104	Many thanks Cheapo and flatlander I believe I'll try deburring flash holes and see what that yields. As to weighing cases. If the case has been trimmed, doesn't that throw everything off as to weighing for 'sameness'? Again, many thanks for your thoughts on these matters. Abe ------------------ If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

July 13, 1999, 11:39 PM	#6
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Abe-- When weighing cases, you first eliminate all variables. If you trim some, trim all before comparing them. For sake of uniformity, and to make the cased fit into my Wilson trimmer's bushing thingys, I always size and decap first as well. A resized case trimmed can be lighter than a fired and not-sized case which is trimmed. Of course, that means you don't compare fired cases with expended primers in, with resized cases that have been decapped. With one batch of cases I worked with, trimming them increased the weight uniformity. Why? Here's a clue--I trimmed them because some cases would barely crimp, and others would crimp to the point of buckling the neck. All the same brand, but perhaps from different lots, and it had been fired only once. Case length was quite inconsistent! A friend of mine gets quite decent groups from most of his rifles. Besides trimming and uniforming the flash holes (in the powder chamber side, not the primer side), he uniforms case necks by outside turning, but only to the point of getting a cut on 1/2 to 2/3 of the neck. The neatest little tool I've seen for doing this is made by Doyle Gracie, but I have no contact data. It was about a hunnert bucks 12 years ago... But it is also fast, repeatable, reliable and nearly indestructible! ------------------ Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

July 14, 1999, 12:57 PM	#7
flatlander Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 1999 Posts: 120	The phone for Match Prep, which is Doyle Gracey's business, is 805-822-5383. If you're going to go to the time and trouble to sort cases by weight, you need to do all your prep work first so that any metal that's going to be removed by trimming, chamfering, deburring, uniforming, etc., is done first. I'm not saying that weighing won't help, but it's not likely to be give noticable results until you shoot at least 300yds+. I only sort by weight for my 600yd. loads.

July 14, 1999, 11:49 PM	#8
Abe Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 1999 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 104	Well that settles it for me, I'll not be weighing cases any time too soon as the shooter is just not capable of hitting a aircraft carrier at 600 yds much less some little piece paper! Although the rifle in the right hands could (and has) with no problem. Again many thanks guy's, ------------------ Abe If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!