More on Wildcats

Futo Inu · July 29, 1999, 03:59 PM

Though I got little response from TFL members about the .44mag to .243 idea, now I think I have a real winner - It was a Eureka! experience last night. I think it's got real potential for a specific niche, and can be done far far cheaper and easier than the other two (in fact all with existing components - brass, dies, reamers, etc. for existing cartridges). I don't even really care if it's commercially successful. It's just something I want to do for curiosity's sake more than anything. Please email me if you are knowledgeable about reloading matters and such, esp. headspacing, AND are interested for whatever reason in helping answer some of my questions re feasibility and possibly even teaming up with me on this (no financial investment, just expertise and maybe payoff). Thanks.

BTW, before I try to re-invent the wheel here, does anyone know the best place to look to see whether a particular wildcat's been tried before, which will have all the dimensions, etc.?

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 29, 1999).]

Art Eatman · July 29, 1999, 05:42 PM

There was an active period of wildcatting during the 1920s and 1930s. I would suggest the NRA as a source. A long-out-of-print book which lists many wildcats, with loading data, is Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading".

The next active period seems to be development of benchrest and TC specialty cartridges, during the 1980s. I don't know if there is a centralized source of info on these. I've mostly read about them in the various gun mags.

One of the magazines catering to handloading might have some archives...

FWIW, Art

rangerco · July 29, 1999, 05:43 PM

You could try Huntington Die Specialties... This is the custom shop part of RCBS that Mr. Fred Sr did not sell to Blount. They make custom dies, reamers, etc. Part two. (II) Like I said, the .44 Mag case necked to .224 has been done. (A Mr. Stark, I believe.) Huntington had a set of dies to do the work on any .44 cases you might have available. Not cheap but on the shelf at one time. Necking .224 up to .243 is a no brainer. Headspace on a .44 mag case, rimmed, is gonna be on the rim unless you go to some great deal of trouble to make it otherwise. If you are so "hot to trot" contact Huntington Die Specialties ... I would suppose the reamer for the .224 version is still around. It is also not real hard to chamber a .243 barrel with the smaller necked reamer and then "clean up" the neck at the larger size. THIS WILL NOT BE FREE, but it will not be difficult. I am not sure there is a good "why" but if you want to spend your bucks in this manner, they are your bucks. good luck.

Daniel Watters · July 29, 1999, 07:01 PM

I posted a few wildcat reference titles along with prices and order numbers the last time you asked about the .243/.44 Magnum.

http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000214.html

What's the new idea? I might be able to save you some money.

Futo Inu · July 30, 1999, 10:02 AM

Yeah, I know Daniel. Thanks. Just haven't got around to getting those references yet. Thought I'd see if I could get a more thorough response.

Thanks, all. One thing I need to know is "What are the following wildcats?". RCBS offers die sets for each:

.218 Mashburn Bee (how diff f/ regular Bee? Just "improved" neck angle or something significant?)

.219 Zipper (apparently 30/30-based)

.22 Cheetah Mach 1

.22 Rem Jet

.22 Savage Hi-Power

Daniel Watters · July 30, 1999, 12:19 PM

.218 Mashburn Bee: changes the shoulder angle from 15 degrees to somewhere around 30 degrees or so.

.219 Zipper: the .25-35 WCF case necked down to .224". You can form it from .30-30 brass, BTW.

.22 Cheetah Mark I: formed from the original Remington Benchrest cases necked down to .224" with a shoulder angle of 40 degrees. (The Mark II has a 28 degree shoulder.) These cases were .308 Winchester length, but with thinner walls and a small primer pocket so they could be cut down and resized into 7mm and .22 BR Remington cases. (Remington wasn't loading the BR cartridges at the time, so they didn't offer preformed cases.) Using loading data from the Benchrest brass with cases formed with normal .308 Win brass might get you into trouble.

.22 Remington Jet: the .357 Magnum case necked down to .223" (original specificiation/recent chamberings use .224"). The long shoulder taper of the case reduces case capacity and contributes to cylinder lockup in the original platform, the S&W Model 53 revolver. Several wildcatters have made improved versions with 30 to 40 degree shoulders.

.22 Savage Hi-Power: the .25-35 WCF case necked down to .228". (That isn't a misprint: .228" not .224".)

Art Eatman · July 30, 1999, 04:05 PM

Some .228 bullets wound up in .224 cartridges, which got exciting when the .220 Swift was involved...

Unless a person is inherently nit-picky careful, anybody without a good number of years of gunsmithing, "messin'" with guns, and reloading is sorta like a Neon Celebrity racer jumping into an Indy Car.

Best luck! Art

July 29, 1999, 03:59 PM	#1
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Though I got little response from TFL members about the .44mag to .243 idea, now I think I have a real winner - It was a Eureka! experience last night. I think it's got real potential for a specific niche, and can be done far far cheaper and easier than the other two (in fact all with existing components - brass, dies, reamers, etc. for existing cartridges). I don't even really care if it's commercially successful. It's just something I want to do for curiosity's sake more than anything. Please email me if you are knowledgeable about reloading matters and such, esp. headspacing, AND are interested for whatever reason in helping answer some of my questions re feasibility and possibly even teaming up with me on this (no financial investment, just expertise and maybe payoff). Thanks. BTW, before I try to re-invent the wheel here, does anyone know the best place to look to see whether a particular wildcat's been tried before, which will have all the dimensions, etc.? [This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 29, 1999).]

July 29, 1999, 05:42 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	There was an active period of wildcatting during the 1920s and 1930s. I would suggest the NRA as a source. A long-out-of-print book which lists many wildcats, with loading data, is Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading". The next active period seems to be development of benchrest and TC specialty cartridges, during the 1980s. I don't know if there is a centralized source of info on these. I've mostly read about them in the various gun mags. One of the magazines catering to handloading might have some archives... FWIW, Art

July 29, 1999, 05:43 PM	#3
rangerco Member Join Date: June 18, 1999 Posts: 56	You could try Huntington Die Specialties... This is the custom shop part of RCBS that Mr. Fred Sr did not sell to Blount. They make custom dies, reamers, etc. Part two. (II) Like I said, the .44 Mag case necked to .224 has been done. (A Mr. Stark, I believe.) Huntington had a set of dies to do the work on any .44 cases you might have available. Not cheap but on the shelf at one time. Necking .224 up to .243 is a no brainer. Headspace on a .44 mag case, rimmed, is gonna be on the rim unless you go to some great deal of trouble to make it otherwise. If you are so "hot to trot" contact Huntington Die Specialties ... I would suppose the reamer for the .224 version is still around. It is also not real hard to chamber a .243 barrel with the smaller necked reamer and then "clean up" the neck at the larger size. THIS WILL NOT BE FREE, but it will not be difficult. I am not sure there is a good "why" but if you want to spend your bucks in this manner, they are your bucks. good luck.

July 29, 1999, 07:01 PM	#4
Daniel Watters Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 644	I posted a few wildcat reference titles along with prices and order numbers the last time you asked about the .243/.44 Magnum. http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000214.html What's the new idea? I might be able to save you some money.

July 30, 1999, 10:02 AM	#5
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Yeah, I know Daniel. Thanks. Just haven't got around to getting those references yet. Thought I'd see if I could get a more thorough response. Thanks, all. One thing I need to know is "What are the following wildcats?". RCBS offers die sets for each: .218 Mashburn Bee (how diff f/ regular Bee? Just "improved" neck angle or something significant?) .219 Zipper (apparently 30/30-based) .22 Cheetah Mach 1 .22 Rem Jet .22 Savage Hi-Power

July 30, 1999, 12:19 PM	#6
Daniel Watters Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 644	.218 Mashburn Bee: changes the shoulder angle from 15 degrees to somewhere around 30 degrees or so. .219 Zipper: the .25-35 WCF case necked down to .224". You can form it from .30-30 brass, BTW. .22 Cheetah Mark I: formed from the original Remington Benchrest cases necked down to .224" with a shoulder angle of 40 degrees. (The Mark II has a 28 degree shoulder.) These cases were .308 Winchester length, but with thinner walls and a small primer pocket so they could be cut down and resized into 7mm and .22 BR Remington cases. (Remington wasn't loading the BR cartridges at the time, so they didn't offer preformed cases.) Using loading data from the Benchrest brass with cases formed with normal .308 Win brass might get you into trouble. .22 Remington Jet: the .357 Magnum case necked down to .223" (original specificiation/recent chamberings use .224"). The long shoulder taper of the case reduces case capacity and contributes to cylinder lockup in the original platform, the S&W Model 53 revolver. Several wildcatters have made improved versions with 30 to 40 degree shoulders. .22 Savage Hi-Power: the .25-35 WCF case necked down to .228". (That isn't a misprint: .228" not .224".)

July 30, 1999, 04:05 PM	#7
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Some .228 bullets wound up in .224 cartridges, which got exciting when the .220 Swift was involved... Unless a person is inherently nit-picky careful, anybody without a good number of years of gunsmithing, "messin'" with guns, and reloading is sorta like a Neon Celebrity racer jumping into an Indy Car. Best luck! Art