Do you have to fight? - Page 6

threegun · February 13, 2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Too bad we, living in a "Free Country", even have to have such a law to fall back on when defending our own lives or our loved ones lives.

It's our own fault for allowing this mindset into power.

Tactical Jackalope · February 13, 2011, 07:40 PM

All these questions are cleared right up when you actually go through an incident where you have to draw your weapon. Then you become so sober in this understanding of when it's right and wrong.

-fin-

106RR · February 22, 2011, 03:19 AM

There is a thing called the "Harries Principle" legality hinges on dissparity of force. There has to be a big enough difference in size or force to warrant a fear for your life or great bodily injury. Does your opponent have martial arts training? Has he taken a martial arts stance? Are you aged or infirmed? All these things come into play when you go before a grand jury to explain the shooting. There is also a racial/socio-economic/class issue. If the deceased was related to a senator you're finished. If he lives and comes to court with a dream team of lawyers, you're finished. If he is a friend of a corrupt bay area politician, you're finished. If you are poor, you're finished. If you are the wrong color for the occasion, you're finished.
You have to realize that if you are being beaten unconscious, you will not be able to distinguish that from death as the darkness descends.
It is best to avoid the fight so you shoot only if there is no other choice.

youngunz4life · June 25, 2011, 04:44 AM

I am pro for the 'you might have to draw' argument but you definately need to keep your cool before it reaches that point. going back and forth as a situation escalates is not a good thing while carrying a weapon. However, one should not have to allow himself or herself to be drawn into a fistfight.

Nnobby45 · June 25, 2011, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're asking if it's ok to shoot some one so you can leave in order to avoid a fight.

Were you faced with death or serious bodily injury? And don't forget the old retired folks on the jury who don't own guns and who will decide your fate based on whether they would have pulled the trigger had they been in your shoes.

What do you think their answer (verdict) would be?

TXGunNut · June 25, 2011, 09:15 AM

I was in more than my share of fights as a young leo but age and maturity eventually taught me to avoid them. I've learned to smile, be polite and generally convey to them that trying to mess up my day is going to totally screw up theirs, and I'm OK with that.

JustThisGuy · June 25, 2011, 09:40 AM

It is always good to use a kind word.

However,,,

"You can get more done with a kind word and a gun, than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

Clearly if the BG is coming at you, and will not back off when he knows you want to leave, and he will not back off when he sees your gun. Then you have a right to fear for your life for he has demonstrated that he thinks he is a superior force to your gun.

JerryM · June 25, 2011, 03:32 PM

Remember that in most states deadly force can only be used if you fear death or great bodily harm.

Since I have never been in a situation mentioned I cannot really imagine it could happen to me. I never frequented places where fights and violence occurred. I still don't.

Jerry

JustThisGuy · June 26, 2011, 12:23 PM

From Post 89...

Quote:

High among the guy's problems is the fact that the attackers were unarmed, even though he was outnumbered.

I have a hard time believing that there isn't more to this case than we are aware of. Multiple attackers even unarmed is without a doubt a justifiable use of force should they attack you.

Two of the three attackers were women.

Also see post 128 (relevant principle) and http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...%20Booklet.pdf which is a brief on the case.

C0untZer0 · June 26, 2011, 01:44 PM

I ask my kids this same question all the time...

8shot357 · June 26, 2011, 02:10 PM

This is the first time I've seen this OP, I didn't feel like reading six pages, I can't imagine there is nothing that hasn't been said or repeated.

I carry pepper/tear gas spray, and a stun gun in that order before I'd even think of pulling my revolver out.

TheNocturnus · June 28, 2011, 01:20 AM

I would try to avoid it all together but some people are just looking for a fight.
If I was truly unable to reason with the attacker or get away, I would warn them to leave or they will be shot as I am afraid for my life.

I'm 31 and am disabled with a back injury, if I were to get into a fight I would be in serious crippling pain very shortly after it began. I would have no choice but to end the confrontation with deadly force.

fhwiggins · June 28, 2011, 07:20 AM

If I'm cornered and someone is threatening to beat the tar out of me....and if I think there is a reasonable chance that I'm going to get hurt, I'm pulling my gun and am going to use it.

Amen Brother!

Edward429451 · June 28, 2011, 12:11 PM

Now how in the world am I supposed to know that he is unarmed? As soon as he restricts my options I'm drawing and going to low ready, at least. I think that a reasonable and prudent individual would assume that the dirtbag has at least a knife. Let's hope he doesn't make any furtive movements.

I'm getting too old to go hand to hand. Even if there is minimal disparity of force, he might be having a good day on the same day that I may be having a bad day. If words can't settle it I have to up the ante and take control of the situation.
I want to go home at night too.

Edward429451 · June 28, 2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

It's our own fault for allowing this mindset into power.

Now THAT is funny.

BGutzman · June 28, 2011, 11:13 PM

You never have to fight, dying is always an option.....

threegun · June 29, 2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Now THAT is funny.

Funny but sadly true. We elect folks who seem to be more concerned with the criminal than the victim. Folks who hate the second amendment. Folks who have lost sight of the definition of personal responsibility.

TylerD45ACP · June 29, 2011, 11:32 AM

No kidding now they are trying to put a TAX! on guns. Also they were trying to ban ALL 'magazine' fed weapons. That leaves pretty much nothing for us shooters to enjoy. I am really sick of antigunners, most have never even shot a firearm. Shoot what you want to ban before you make judgement on it. Too many rules and regulations coming into play.

threegun · June 29, 2011, 12:17 PM

edited to comply with the rules

Sorry Pax.

pax · June 29, 2011, 02:32 PM

Hey, everyone, quick reminder: this is the Tactics and Training area of TFL, not the civil rights discussion area. If you'd like to discuss gun laws & freedom, please take it "downstairs" to the Law and Civil Rights area.

Thanks,

pax

BlueTrain · June 29, 2011, 03:30 PM

Here's another take on the original question about whether you have to fight:

Sometimes you have to fight because you can't run away. Sometimes you have to fight because it is the honorable thing to do, even if you have no chance of winning. It makes no difference what you're armed with or what they are are armed with. And you may not have much time to ponder the situation either.

Edward429451 · June 29, 2011, 05:37 PM

I think disparity of force is for the schoolground. I can't see if the BG has a black belt in Kung Fu or whatever and he can't see my bad back even if we are the same size. Handguns were made to stop fights and equal the playing field. No you do not have to fight fair or climb some sort of escalation of force ladder. That's police stuff.

The smaller the BG is the more inclined I would be to think he has something up his sleeve or he would not approach someone as big as him.

TylerD45ACP · June 29, 2011, 07:44 PM

I know when its time to fight when my life or the life of loved ones is in immediate danger. I am then going to take action.

paladin-34 · June 30, 2011, 12:35 AM

When my son was 12 (or so) we had just parked in the driveway. I walked around to the trunk to bring the guns in the house, we had just been out to the range. I popped the trunk and took my carry gun out to empty it before carrying the guns in for cleaning when one of my wife’s friends pulled up, I turned to say high, dropping my 380 auto into my pocket to keep it out of site as I waved. The cars on the street were parked tight so traffic could only go one way at a time, so she drove up to the next door neighbors drive to turn around. She did not know the reason why no one was parked in front of that house. But she found it out soon enough.

She pulled into the neighbors drive to let the cars behind her through. When she realized the neighbor was running towards her car with a tire iron pointed at her. I saw the fear in her face, it was like someone ran a nail right through the center of my body from head to toe, then I saw him. She put the car in reverse and gunned it, not looking for traffic and just missed the car that had been behind her as she turned into the driveway. I started yelling: “Your gona get someone killed!” over and over as he chased her into the street.She somehow got the car into the street without hitting something or be getting hit by another car. Only to find him pulling back to take a swing at the passenger side wind shield of her vehicle.

By now my wife, my son, and his wife were all yelling with me. She wasted no time putting the car in drive and got out of there. He did not swing at her car, instead turned looking at me.

He took off directly for me, swinging the tire iron. I continued to yell: “what are you doing” time slowed way down! I realized my son was between us so I pushed him behind me. Then realized the 380 was in my right pocket. I reached in and found it. clicked the safety off. pulled it out of my pocket and held it on the side of my leg away from him. He continued towards me, I herd nothing, I only saw him. As I stood there yelling as he closed on me. All I could think of was did I click safety on or off.

During the eon it took for him to reach me, winding up and lung at me all I could think of was is the safety on or off. He finally reached me leapt into the air to get max inertia on the tire iron as it looped behind his back and over his head and started coming down on me. I put my left hand up to block the tire iron then pulled the right hand up to shoot. My plan was to shoot then hit the ground hoping to get out of the arc of his swing.

I don’t know what it was that brought him back to reality, his face went blank, he stopped almost nose to nose with me, the tire iron came down very slowly I slipped the gun back in my pocket. I rose and we were face to face, standing there, he would not look at me. I could not take my eyes off him. As he started to back away I realized everyone was yelling, his wife was screaming his name, my son: “shoot him”. My wife had gone down the street to the friend to check on her, out of her car and shaking.

The police officer who responded told me that had he been in my shoes the neighbor would be dead. I said NY requires that I retreat. He said you moved your son out of the way. Then continued 12 out of 23people just like you have to find you were not justified, then 12 people have to feel the same. Sounds like much better odds than you had.

What did I learn from this? First and foremost, I won’t carry a gun with a manual safety. my entire outlook on these encounters changed after that. Its not about what we say we will do safely sitting behind a pc with no real threat to speak of. Its about how much rope are you willing to let out before you take a life changing action. We honestly do not know where we will fall there till its to late. And most importantly how can LEO face this every day? I just can not fathom that.

Joe

TylerD45ACP · June 30, 2011, 12:50 AM

Wow intense. Im glad you and your family are ok. Sounds like he saw the 380 and had a quick mind change. That must have been crazy thinking you might be shooting someone. What kind of pistol was it by the way. I like 1911 it has a saftey but I know its off because it switches down.

June 25, 2011, 04:44 AM	#129
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	good thread I am pro for the 'you might have to draw' argument but you definately need to keep your cool before it reaches that point. going back and forth as a situation escalates is not a good thing while carrying a weapon. However, one should not have to allow himself or herself to be drawn into a fistfight. __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

June 25, 2011, 09:15 AM	#131
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	I was in more than my share of fights as a young leo but age and maturity eventually taught me to avoid them. I've learned to smile, be polite and generally convey to them that trying to mess up my day is going to totally screw up theirs, and I'm OK with that. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

June 25, 2011, 09:40 AM	#132
JustThisGuy Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Posts: 311	It is always good to use a kind word. However,,, "You can get more done with a kind word and a gun, than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone Clearly if the BG is coming at you, and will not back off when he knows you want to leave, and he will not back off when he sees your gun. Then you have a right to fear for your life for he has demonstrated that he thinks he is a superior force to your gun. __________________ JustThisGuy Mediocrity dominates over excellence in all things... except excellence.

June 25, 2011, 03:32 PM	#133
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	Remember that in most states deadly force can only be used if you fear death or great bodily harm. Since I have never been in a situation mentioned I cannot really imagine it could happen to me. I never frequented places where fights and violence occurred. I still don't. Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

June 26, 2011, 01:44 PM	#135
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Do you have to fight? I ask my kids this same question all the time...

February 13, 2011, 07:40 PM	#127
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	All these questions are cleared right up when you actually go through an incident where you have to draw your weapon. Then you become so sober in this understanding of when it's right and wrong. -fin-

February 22, 2011, 03:19 AM	#128
106RR Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Posts: 234	There is a thing called the "Harries Principle" legality hinges on dissparity of force. There has to be a big enough difference in size or force to warrant a fear for your life or great bodily injury. Does your opponent have martial arts training? Has he taken a martial arts stance? Are you aged or infirmed? All these things come into play when you go before a grand jury to explain the shooting. There is also a racial/socio-economic/class issue. If the deceased was related to a senator you're finished. If he lives and comes to court with a dream team of lawyers, you're finished. If he is a friend of a corrupt bay area politician, you're finished. If you are poor, you're finished. If you are the wrong color for the occasion, you're finished. You have to realize that if you are being beaten unconscious, you will not be able to distinguish that from death as the darkness descends. It is best to avoid the fight so you shoot only if there is no other choice.

June 26, 2011, 02:10 PM	#136
8shot357 Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 1,740	This is the first time I've seen this OP, I didn't feel like reading six pages, I can't imagine there is nothing that hasn't been said or repeated. I carry pepper/tear gas spray, and a stun gun in that order before I'd even think of pulling my revolver out.

June 28, 2011, 01:20 AM	#137
TheNocturnus Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,097	I would try to avoid it all together but some people are just looking for a fight. If I was truly unable to reason with the attacker or get away, I would warn them to leave or they will be shot as I am afraid for my life. I'm 31 and am disabled with a back injury, if I were to get into a fight I would be in serious crippling pain very shortly after it began. I would have no choice but to end the confrontation with deadly force. __________________ My EDC: Gun Wallet Brain (Use this one the most)

June 28, 2011, 07:20 AM	#138
fhwiggins Member Join Date: July 14, 2009 Posts: 36	If I'm cornered and someone is threatening to beat the tar out of me....and if I think there is a reasonable chance that I'm going to get hurt, I'm pulling my gun and am going to use it. Amen Brother! __________________ "Law abiding citizen" is not a synonym for "Sheep to the slaughter." CCW!

June 28, 2011, 12:11 PM	#139
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Now how in the world am I supposed to know that he is unarmed? As soon as he restricts my options I'm drawing and going to low ready, at least. I think that a reasonable and prudent individual would assume that the dirtbag has at least a knife. Let's hope he doesn't make any furtive movements. I'm getting too old to go hand to hand. Even if there is minimal disparity of force, he might be having a good day on the same day that I may be having a bad day. If words can't settle it I have to up the ante and take control of the situation. I want to go home at night too.

June 28, 2011, 11:13 PM	#141
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	You never have to fight, dying is always an option..... __________________ Molon Labe Last edited by BGutzman; June 29, 2011 at 02:41 PM.

June 29, 2011, 11:32 AM	#143
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	No kidding now they are trying to put a TAX! on guns. Also they were trying to ban ALL 'magazine' fed weapons. That leaves pretty much nothing for us shooters to enjoy. I am really sick of antigunners, most have never even shot a firearm. Shoot what you want to ban before you make judgement on it. Too many rules and regulations coming into play.

June 29, 2011, 12:17 PM	#144
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	edited to comply with the rules Sorry Pax. Last edited by threegun; June 29, 2011 at 03:11 PM.

June 29, 2011, 02:32 PM	#145
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Hey, everyone, quick reminder: this is the Tactics and Training area of TFL, not the civil rights discussion area. If you'd like to discuss gun laws & freedom, please take it "downstairs" to the Law and Civil Rights area. Thanks, pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

June 29, 2011, 03:30 PM	#146
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Here's another take on the original question about whether you have to fight: Sometimes you have to fight because you can't run away. Sometimes you have to fight because it is the honorable thing to do, even if you have no chance of winning. It makes no difference what you're armed with or what they are are armed with. And you may not have much time to ponder the situation either. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

June 29, 2011, 05:37 PM	#147
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I think disparity of force is for the schoolground. I can't see if the BG has a black belt in Kung Fu or whatever and he can't see my bad back even if we are the same size. Handguns were made to stop fights and equal the playing field. No you do not have to fight fair or climb some sort of escalation of force ladder. That's police stuff. The smaller the BG is the more inclined I would be to think he has something up his sleeve or he would not approach someone as big as him.

June 29, 2011, 07:44 PM	#148
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	I know when its time to fight when my life or the life of loved ones is in immediate danger. I am then going to take action.

June 30, 2011, 12:35 AM	#149
paladin-34 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 177	When my son was 12 (or so) we had just parked in the driveway. I walked around to the trunk to bring the guns in the house, we had just been out to the range. I popped the trunk and took my carry gun out to empty it before carrying the guns in for cleaning when one of my wife’s friends pulled up, I turned to say high, dropping my 380 auto into my pocket to keep it out of site as I waved. The cars on the street were parked tight so traffic could only go one way at a time, so she drove up to the next door neighbors drive to turn around. She did not know the reason why no one was parked in front of that house. But she found it out soon enough. She pulled into the neighbors drive to let the cars behind her through. When she realized the neighbor was running towards her car with a tire iron pointed at her. I saw the fear in her face, it was like someone ran a nail right through the center of my body from head to toe, then I saw him. She put the car in reverse and gunned it, not looking for traffic and just missed the car that had been behind her as she turned into the driveway. I started yelling: “Your gona get someone killed!” over and over as he chased her into the street.She somehow got the car into the street without hitting something or be getting hit by another car. Only to find him pulling back to take a swing at the passenger side wind shield of her vehicle. By now my wife, my son, and his wife were all yelling with me. She wasted no time putting the car in drive and got out of there. He did not swing at her car, instead turned looking at me. He took off directly for me, swinging the tire iron. I continued to yell: “what are you doing” time slowed way down! I realized my son was between us so I pushed him behind me. Then realized the 380 was in my right pocket. I reached in and found it. clicked the safety off. pulled it out of my pocket and held it on the side of my leg away from him. He continued towards me, I herd nothing, I only saw him. As I stood there yelling as he closed on me. All I could think of was did I click safety on or off. During the eon it took for him to reach me, winding up and lung at me all I could think of was is the safety on or off. He finally reached me leapt into the air to get max inertia on the tire iron as it looped behind his back and over his head and started coming down on me. I put my left hand up to block the tire iron then pulled the right hand up to shoot. My plan was to shoot then hit the ground hoping to get out of the arc of his swing. I don’t know what it was that brought him back to reality, his face went blank, he stopped almost nose to nose with me, the tire iron came down very slowly I slipped the gun back in my pocket. I rose and we were face to face, standing there, he would not look at me. I could not take my eyes off him. As he started to back away I realized everyone was yelling, his wife was screaming his name, my son: “shoot him”. My wife had gone down the street to the friend to check on her, out of her car and shaking. The police officer who responded told me that had he been in my shoes the neighbor would be dead. I said NY requires that I retreat. He said you moved your son out of the way. Then continued 12 out of 23people just like you have to find you were not justified, then 12 people have to feel the same. Sounds like much better odds than you had. What did I learn from this? First and foremost, I won’t carry a gun with a manual safety. my entire outlook on these encounters changed after that. Its not about what we say we will do safely sitting behind a pc with no real threat to speak of. Its about how much rope are you willing to let out before you take a life changing action. We honestly do not know where we will fall there till its to late. And most importantly how can LEO face this every day? I just can not fathom that. Joe __________________ New York: where we import politicians but no standard cap mag.s. 7 rounds in a 10 round mag, andy will be running for president soon.

June 30, 2011, 12:50 AM	#150
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Wow intense. Im glad you and your family are ok. Sounds like he saw the 380 and had a quick mind change. That must have been crazy thinking you might be shooting someone. What kind of pistol was it by the way. I like 1911 it has a saftey but I know its off because it switches down.