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View Poll Results: Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety) | |||
Yep, at all times | 30 | 13.89% | |
Nope, Never | 92 | 42.59% | |
Yep, but only on the street, not in the Home/Business | 63 | 29.17% | |
I'm not ansering because I dont want to seem either wimpy or bloodthirsty | 15 | 6.94% | |
I'd rather have pic of you and Spiff iwearing spandex loincloths lard wrestling in a baby pool. | 16 | 7.41% | |
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll |
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June 12, 2009, 12:33 AM | #76 | |
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I think some here are debating past each other. There are two types of morality: Moral Absolutism and Moral Relativism.
Absolutism means that morals do not evolve. In this case a society or individual is judged based upon adherence to this absolute right and wrong standard. What is right is right, and can not change. For this to exist, something outside and above human society must set the rules. This requires a deity, or other outside force. Relativism means that morality can and does change based upon the societal and temporal context. The problem with relativism are the questions "who makes the rules" and "who judges." Relativism leads to the abandonment of all absolute morality based upon the situation. No absolute can properly ajudicate all situations from a relativists point of view. Quote:
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June 12, 2009, 07:01 AM | #77 | |
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I voted retreat, as long as it was safe to do so.
I have no desire to be in a fire fight. I also have no desire to let some thug cause harm to me or mine. I will decide what is safe to me, no one else. Legaly, it would be my word against evidence in the courts. Morally, I'd have to decide everynight, for the rest of my life if Had made the right decision. I have a very strong moral code, and if I saw that there was no safe retreat, then I would not hesitate, to commit to the situation at hand. Everyone has there idea of what they will do when the time comes, I can tell ya', that all the "what if's" never play out like ya think, when the fuel is put on the fire. In my case I chose to stand my ground, which backfired, because so did the BG. He must have had more to lose than I though. I hesitated(I was young), and good thing, because the BG, lowered his gun and ran away. If I had to do it all over, I believe I wouldn't have tried to make it back to my vehicle(where gun was), I would have just turned around and went back to the mall. Legally, I don't think I would have had a leg to dtand on, being there were other options at hand. Morally, I THOUGHT, I had made the right decision. Anytime you an individual takes an offensive stance, you must be prepared to act. I wasn't(as I think many aren't) Different BG, or time of day, and I'd be a statistic, I didn't act!
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Last edited by kristop64089; June 12, 2009 at 07:10 AM. |
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June 12, 2009, 07:35 AM | #78 |
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Responding to the OP only: it has always been my personal belief that a person should stop a criminal permanentely if given an opportunity. I came to this conclusion based on the twin facts that it conforms to my moral principles and is the most practical solution to crime.
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June 12, 2009, 07:53 AM | #79 |
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This is a very Gray area and is going to depend on circumstances in home,car or business it's a definete NO RETREAT! On the street however we have to remember a CCW does not make us a cop, A CCW puts a tremendous amount of responsibility on our shoulders,to get involved in a shooting we have to weigh our decision of what is going to qualify as a justified shooting in what could be split seconds and that choice better be a good one or that bad guy could be laughing as our butt sits in jail and our loved ones loose everything due to the court cost's that ruin us! It would be the smartest thing in the world for all of us to try to remember to put some form of retreat format in our training so we automatically fall back on it's use if a sit rep every befalls us, it would only beneifit us in the long run to be able to show/document we tried to,retreat/break off/get away, but the bad guy kept the pursuit up, so we had no choice but to save our lives! a trail of your spent cartridges going backwards would certainly imply your intent to retreat even if it were just a few! That would go a long way in a court of law,little things count.Now don't take this out of context if a bg guy jumps out with a knife at your throat thrashing,this is a Immediate threat,like I said it all depends on the sit rep and as CCW holders we have tremendous responsibilities that we must make ourselves prepared for,most we don"t even think about,but should adapt for in our training
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June 12, 2009, 09:35 AM | #80 | |
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csmss
Quote:
While you are correct that it is unknowable whether there is a BG waiting out the back door, it is equally unknowable if 3 or 4 bgs are coming in the front door, all with automatic weapons (see this video)...In any uncertain situation one has to make a split-second decision that takes him down the path of least resistance. Ultimately that decision may have to be reconsidered. If you find a BG out your back door, then you get your opportunity to protect your STUFF! |
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June 12, 2009, 10:03 AM | #81 | ||
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Quote:
The scenario is that you could escape without danger. The above quote seems to indicate that you would insert yourself into a situation so you COULD end the life of someone you deemed a criminal. This smacks of vigilantism. Would you knowingly place yourself in danger so as to: Quote:
Matt |
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June 12, 2009, 10:12 AM | #82 | |
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Quote:
1) If moral relativism is true the there is no correct answer. Whatever the individual involved believes to be right, is right. In fact, it is not even wrong for the person committing the "crime" since, according to that persons morality, it is perfectly moral to be doing so. Society would in fact be wrong to even call it a crime, since that would be imposing completely arbitrary morality. 2) If moral absolutes are true then it either absolutely is mandated to retreat when possible or it is not mandated to retreat when possible. There would be no middle ground. There could be opinions, but one opinion would be right and the other wrong, regardless of who or how many believe the right thing or do not.
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June 12, 2009, 10:19 AM | #83 | ||
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Quote:
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June 12, 2009, 12:15 PM | #84 |
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Peetza, you said what I meant even better than I.
Our job is to determine if we live to standards of absolutes or in a relativist world. I believe it is an absolutist world. In this absolutist world, killing is ALWAYS wrong. The moral question is who is responsible for killing. If it is unjstified, it is murder. If it is justified, the murder is the instigator.
As an example, if I am speeding or driving drunk and cause an accident, a death is my responsibility. If I am sleeping in my home, someone breaks in, and I shoot to protect myself and my family, the burglar is responsible. I have no moral culpability because I did not precipitate the action. Similarly, if I am somewhere where I am allowed to be, and a BG commits an act of violence, I am not responsible, MORALLY, for the results of HIS act. Legally is another matter. To paraphrase, the Good Lord may forgive, but the State of Mississippi is another matter. I have a MORAL duty to understand the LEGAL ramifications of my actions. If I go to jail and leave my family in the lurch because I did not understand the legal ramifications of my actions, there is some moral consequenses between God and me.
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June 12, 2009, 12:18 PM | #85 | |
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BTW Peetza,
Quote:
Are you leaving that up to us? Are you a relativist?
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June 12, 2009, 12:56 PM | #86 |
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Let's restate it for the simple: when in a situation where one can legally kill a criminal, one should.
Edit: to further elaborate, the OP ask should one retreat if it is an option when deadly force justified. One should not. Is this vigilantism? Hardly, when the law allows such action to be taken.
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June 12, 2009, 01:00 PM | #87 |
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PS: Just because I voted for the third option does not mean that I do not want to see the lard wrestling photos.
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June 12, 2009, 01:09 PM | #88 | |
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Quote:
There's a line between funny and disturbing and you flirt with it quite a bit WA (still funnny in this case though )
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June 12, 2009, 01:27 PM | #89 |
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Given the option, I would always retreat. Morals have nothing to do with it. It just makes sense. It is not my job to stop crime. It is only my job to protect myself. By protecting myself, I protect my family.
As long as retreating will not endanger my family (i.e., leave them facing the danger on their own), why wouldn't I retreat? If I engage with the BG, there is always the chance something is going to go wrong. Just because I'm the good guy doesn't mean I can't come out on the losing end. As far as protecting bystanders or stopping a crime in progress? Not my job. My job is to be there for my family. While I might feel like risking my life to stop a crime, do I have the right to deprive my family of a father and husband to protect a stranger? I don't think so. I carry a gun for one reason - to protect myself and my family. I'm not a cop. I'm not a vigilante. Avoid fights and you avoid the risk of losing. |
June 12, 2009, 01:33 PM | #90 |
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I'm up for seeing the pics of the rasslin in lard in the kiddie pool
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June 12, 2009, 01:39 PM | #91 | |
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Quote:
1)No right or wrong. 2)Retreat is morally required. 3)Retreat is NOT morally required. Those are the options, in the simplest terms. There are no other possibilities.
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Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; June 12, 2009 at 09:45 PM. |
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June 12, 2009, 01:55 PM | #92 | |
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Donn_N poses a question which I find to be a difficult dilemna for myself:
Quote:
When I was in the military I realized that it was my duty to put myself in possible risk. Now I find this situation in civilian life is maybe not so clear cut.
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June 12, 2009, 02:41 PM | #93 | |
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Quote:
As a matter of both ethics and common sense, I see no reason why this principle wouldn't apply to a situation involving the defense of bystanders, as well. A person might choose to intervene even if it were not safe to do so, especially in the case of a threat to family or friends, but that choice would be based on emotion, not on principle.
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June 12, 2009, 02:45 PM | #94 | |
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Stargazer
+1
The question of your duty to protect others is where personal choice and opinion affect morality. I believe that I do have a moral duty to help and protect others, even when at risk to my personal safety. This duty is stronger when relating to women or children in danger (warning: Old fashioned values statement) as I am more able to shoulder such risks. However, I don't believe that an answer different from mine is less "manly" or correct. I don't have kids, I'm not married. My responsibilities are much less than a father. I don't have anyone dependent on me. Where I believe I should take a risk to help others, my situation dictates that. I wouldn't second guess someone who answers differently. Quote:
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June 12, 2009, 02:52 PM | #95 |
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At this point in my life I have no dependents, no wife, no kids. For the time being I feel that if someone's life (not property) is in danger and I am in a position to protect them without further endangering them or others (myself not included) then I should take it.
That might change when my responsibilities expand a little but for now this is how I feel.
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June 12, 2009, 05:16 PM | #96 |
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Nope - no moral duty.
Assumptions:
However, there are special circumstances where I would retreat or not immediately try to neutralize the threat. For instance, if the attacker is;
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June 12, 2009, 05:29 PM | #97 |
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Don't take away my right to choose
If someone is attempting to harm you or your family or if you have a fear that you can articulate to another person that your life or another's is in danger, the person endangering your life or another's has taken away your right to choose to harm (or kill) them or not.
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June 12, 2009, 05:37 PM | #98 | |
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Quote:
I'm not sure I'd abandon my home or property in the name of some one elses' moral/ethical judgement. Is the life of a criminal worth more than than my personal possesions I'd worked hard to purchase? Maybe, but is that life worth more than my liberties that have been paid for with the blood of Americans? That's not to diminish the sound wisdom of a tactical and de-escalating retreat. I'll be requred to make my own judgements when and if the time comes. And that, of course, takes into strong consideration whether deadly force would be authorized under the law. Hope this isn't going to be a "pass judgement on others" thread. Last edited by Nnobby45; June 12, 2009 at 05:55 PM. |
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June 12, 2009, 06:38 PM | #99 |
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Well, the only judgment I'll pass on anybody is who looks better in spandex, WA or spiff.
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June 12, 2009, 07:24 PM | #100 |
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moral
Even if you are armed and have the immediate ability to stop dead someone threatening our life WHY if you have the ability to say slam a steel door infront of you shut wouldn't you?
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