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Old June 15, 2024, 11:34 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Koda94
The first thing Id do is try the Underwood option mentioned above, then the Buffalo Bore option.
I would be very hesitant to try the Underwood ammo. It isn't hollowpoint, but it IS designed (and advertised) to expand. The New Jersey law expressly prohibits "dum-dum" ammunition, and dum-dum ammo could include any type of ammunition that's designed or intended to expand upon impact.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, because I know the options are extremely limited, but as a risk-averse person I have to at least mention potential risks.

Would it be possible to verify with the New Jersey AG or State Police whether or not the polymer-filled bullets are legal? I noticed that Hornady sells one such, and on their web site they refer to it as a hollow-point even though the cavity is filled.
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Old June 15, 2024, 11:53 PM   #27
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I was also pleasantly surprised to discover the amount of spare parts and options Seecamp has available, now.

My Seecamp from the early 2000's had a couple issues. The side plate tended to pop off over the trigger pin/axis, unless I used mild ammo (silvertips) and put an exactly correct amount of tension on the grip screw (the grips hold the side plate in place). Too tight or too lose, and firing would cause that side plate to pop over the pin, due to flexing of the plastic grips. The gun would continue to function, but it was annoying as hell.

It also started to blow the magazine out past the heel-mounted mag release -- particularly with hot ammo. This was caused by a weak mainspring, which also applies tension to the mag release.

So, for a number of years I stopped carrying the Seecamp -- I took it out of rotation. Just didn't inspire confidence.

Then one day I happened upon their web page, and decided to fix it up. A new mainspring fixed the issue of the mag popping out. Got a new side-plate and G10 grips, which are much stiffer than the plastic ones and hold everything together nicely (and also have a nice grippy G10 texture) -- it completely fixed the side-plate issue.

And I added on the extra-power recoil springs, for use with hot ammo. Turns out the extra-power recoil spring works fine with sivertips as well (at least on my gun).

So, my 20+ year old Seecamp is back in rotation, arguably better than ever. It's not a gun I shoot very much, but does get carried from time to time -- it's classy as hell.
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Old June 16, 2024, 12:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I would be very hesitant to try the Underwood ammo. It isn't hollowpoint, but it IS designed (and advertised) to expand. The New Jersey law expressly prohibits "dum-dum" ammunition, and dum-dum ammo could include any type of ammunition that's designed or intended to expand upon impact.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, because I know the options are extremely limited, but as a risk-averse person I have to at least mention potential risks.

Would it be possible to verify with the New Jersey AG or State Police whether or not the polymer-filled bullets are legal? I noticed that Hornady sells one such, and on their web site they refer to it as a hollow-point even though the cavity is filled.
Underwoods description is really subjective, I thought they were talking about the wound cavity expansion compared to hollowpoint wound cavity expansion. To me, these modern solid copper bullets with external machine cuts are not hollowpoints but I digress... I agree with you I would not risk setting the first case law example right or wrong. The law is so dumb, they even included dumb in it, which leaves it wide open to interpretation.

Hollowpoint or not, the 32 is already weak for self defense, I'm not certain the bullet would really matter, personally in small weak calibers Id rather have a FMJ anyways. Seecamp is odd in that its the only pocket gun I know of thats specifically designed only for a hollowpoint, quite the dilemma if living in NJ. Id give Buffalo Bore a try (though Im not a fan of +P but cant imagine why they thought it logical to make a +P for such small guns...) or try out a couple boxes of standard FMJ and see if one gets lucky. Unfortunately its all he can do.
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Old June 16, 2024, 12:23 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I would be very hesitant to try the Underwood ammo. It isn't hollowpoint, but it IS designed (and advertised) to expand. The New Jersey law expressly prohibits "dum-dum" ammunition, and dum-dum ammo could include any type of ammunition that's designed or intended to expand upon impact.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, because I know the options are extremely limited, but as a risk-averse person I have to at least mention potential risks.

Would it be possible to verify with the New Jersey AG or State Police whether or not the polymer-filled bullets are legal? I noticed that Hornady sells one such, and on their web site they refer to it as a hollow-point even though the cavity is filled.
Are you thinking of a different Underwood load?

I suppose there could always be some kind of tortured logic in classifying something as a "dum-dum," but the xtreme defender is a solid monolithic copper bullet that doesn't expand (and I've never seen advertizements to that effect). The flutes in the bullet displace fluid in a creative way, and tend to generate an impressive cavity in gel tests, but the bullets themselves always emerge from the tests looking pristine, as though they could be loaded and fired a second time. They're less prone to expansion on impact than fmj.
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Old June 16, 2024, 02:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda94
Underwoods description is really subjective, I thought they were talking about the wound cavity expansion compared to hollowpoint wound cavity expansion. To me, these modern solid copper bullets with external machine cuts are not hollowpoints but I digress... I agree with you I would not risk setting the first case law example right or wrong. The law is so dumb, they even included dumb in it, which leaves it wide open to interpretation.
I didn't say or even try to imply that they are hollowpoints. They clearly are not. But, from Underwood's description, it seems evident that they ARE designed to expand, and that could be portrayed as making them "dum-dum" bullets.

As I wrote, I am risk-averse. I'm too old and too poor to risk being a test case. There's an old saying -- "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Ask Greg Revell -- he's the guy who was arrested at Newark Airport after he missed a flight, spent a night at a hotel at the airport, and then tried to recheck his bag with a handgun in it. Ultimately, the charges were dropped and he wasn't prosecuted, BUT ... he spent ten days in jail, and a boatload of money on attorney fees. Yes, that was Newark, New Jersey.
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Old June 16, 2024, 02:58 AM   #31
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Are you thinking of a different Underwood load?

I suppose there could always be some kind of tortured logic in classifying something as a "dum-dum," but the xtreme defender is a solid monolithic copper bullet that doesn't expand (and I've never seen advertizements to that effect). The flutes in the bullet displace fluid in a creative way, and tend to generate an impressive cavity in gel tests, but the bullets themselves always emerge from the tests looking pristine, as though they could be loaded and fired a second time. They're less prone to expansion on impact than fmj.
No, I am not thinking of a different Underwood load.

I looked up the Underwood load that was suggested. And I looked up the New Jersey law that prohibits hollowpoint ammo. The law starts off by prohibiting "dum-dum" ammunition. But the law doesn't define what it means by "dum-dum," so a zealous prosecutor could spin it to include any bullet that's designed to expand, or any bullet that's designed to create a larger wound channel than hardball ammo.

That's just not something I would choose to roll the dice on. Your mileage may vary. Especially in a blue state such as New Jersey, I would prefer to avoid anything that even might be open to providing an excuse to arrest me. Like with Greg Revell, even if you prevail in the end, it'll ruin your life and your bank account for a long time to come.
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Old June 16, 2024, 08:34 PM   #32
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rms Information
Transportation and Use of Hollow Point Ammunition by Sportsmen
NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit
P.O. Box 7068
West Trenton, New Jersey 08628-0068
609-882-2000 Extension 2290 (Phone)
609-406-9826 Fax

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
A person going directly to a target range, and;
A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."
As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) re
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Old June 16, 2024, 08:37 PM   #33
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Here is is.. All from NJ State police website.

NJ has horrible gun laws.

You can call state police and ask questions. It appears you may own hollow point in your dwelling and use it for target.


Be careful.. NJ is anti gun.

Good luck
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Old June 17, 2024, 01:14 AM   #34
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Good research redlight. But

I don’t see any suggestion that hollowpoints can be carried on a daily basis, as the OP wants.
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Old June 17, 2024, 09:22 AM   #35
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I would not play word games with the minions of government.
Get one or another of the flat points that will fit the magazine and motor on.
Heck, I carry Ball in my Keltec.
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Old June 18, 2024, 08:46 AM   #36
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Ownership and possession are different things in NJ as I remember from living there and paying very close attention to the laws at the time. Possession being on or about your person. There was no carry then, in the may issue license that was never issued. You can own HP ammo and transport it to the range, or to where you might hunt, etc. But you cannot have it in your gun or magazines. Pay strict attention to the rules.

NJ is hostile to gun ownership and insane about carry. My advice is not to carry your father's gun that cannot be replaced but keep it safe as an heirloom - if you make one misstep, they'll confiscate and destroy it. Burn a pistol permit for something that will work with accepted ammo that is designated inoffensive by NJ's laws and interpretations.

Not a lawyer, better safe than sorry.
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Old June 19, 2024, 07:51 PM   #37
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With a super short barrel and 32 automatic power you're better off with a solid anyway.

A HP isn't likely to expand. Use the power you have to penetrate which is what the round was designed to do originally.
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Old June 19, 2024, 10:13 PM   #38
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The OP hasn't been here since posting the question. I suggest we stop discussing it unless/until he returns and offers some feedback.
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Old June 25, 2024, 09:01 AM   #39
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As mentioned previously, it appears the Winchester Whitebox Q4255 "Target and Practice" load uses a truncated cone FMJ, which is a decent step up from round-nose FMJ for self-defense purposes. It is not a maximum power round. However, you can get your feet wet with it and not violate any laws. The SD cartridges with the Lehigh defense bullets will likely do better, but NJ is strange, and you would want to check with your local law enforcement to be sure they don't think the funny nose design constitutes a "dum dum." It's NJ, so you never know until you ask.
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Old June 25, 2024, 10:35 AM   #40
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It seems to me that the two best options would be either the Underwood XTreme Defender with it's Lehigh fluted bullet or the Winchester 71 gr FMJ-FP. Pretty much anything else would seem to be skirting too closely to a hollowpoint. That being said, I personally would be nervous about the Underwood because, while it's not a hollowpoint and doesn't nor is it designed to expand or deform, given the political antipathy of New Jersey towards all things firearm related I'd be worried about how a prosecutor and/or jury might interpret specialty ammunition like the Underwood even if it is technically within the letter of the law.

When people ask these sorts of questions, I usually try to give solutions to make whatever gun they have workable, but in this specific case I would suggest at least considering acquiring a different firearm. The Seecamp's design makes it very ammunition specific and all of the loadings recommended on Seecamp's website are hollowpoints. Between having a gun that is so "ammo-picky" and living in a state that so severely restricts your ammo choices, you're left with at best two and at worst one option for useable factory ammo to carry. .32 ACP ammunition isn't as widely available as it used to be and, if you're limited to one specific loading, there's no guarantee that you'll always be able to get it. If you want a small .32 for pocket carry, the NAA guardian, Kel-Tec P32, and Beretta Tomcat are all available in that caliber and can use a wider variety of ammunition than the Seecamp can.
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Old June 25, 2024, 12:02 PM   #41
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It's the magical round that turned 380 to outperform many 9mm JHP...

https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...1-P32HSD1.html
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Old June 25, 2024, 12:07 PM   #42
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I personally wouldnt seek advice from law enforcement on the legality of the Lehigh bullets. If you cant afford to consult a lawyer on that then just best to avoid them all together.
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Old June 25, 2024, 12:47 PM   #43
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I have a Seecamp in 32. It shoots lots of ammo, including some FMJ. It does want a COAL shorter than SAAMI-max in order to fit the magazine and feed well.

HP ammo is utterly pointless in a Seecamp .32 autopistol, and the reason is very simple:
It won't expand. See here for some results:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/poc...results/#32ACP
Note that the small gun is a Kel-Tec, which has a longer barrel than a Seecamp. Seecamp owners and other testers have found noticeably less expansion from HP ammo than what LuckyGunner shows with their Kel-Tec in that testing.

My own opinion and suggestion is to find some FMJ that will feed through your gun and use that.

DO NOT USE HIGH-PRESSURE AMMO IN A SEECAMP, at least not if you're a volume shooter. They have failed from being beat up by high-pressure stuff. Stick with standard-pressure ammo.
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Old June 25, 2024, 12:59 PM   #44
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welcome to TFL

Quote:
I have a Gorgeous .32 LW Seecamp that was my late fathers. It is relief engraved and stunning and I would LOVE to carry it on a daily basis.
IF the gun has any emotional value to you, I would advise against carrying it, daily or other wise.

Besides the wear on the finish that will inevitably result, the biggest reason not to carry a gun with irreplaceable emotional value is the risk you will lose it. And I don't mean, "it fell into the swamp and sank out of sight", I mean that if you ever have to use it defensively, the police WILL TAKE IT.

It is evidence, and stays evidence, until ALL legal matters involved are concluded. This might be a matter of days, or weeks, but could be months or even years, depending on the specific involved. And the police are not noted for taking good care of guns in "evidence". Rust, finish, and even mechanical damage are not unknown, and in some instances, not terribly uncommon.

Additionally, there is a risk that even with you completely exonerated and all legal proceedings completed, you still may never see that gun again. There are /have been places where the authorities simply will not return your gun, and may even destroy it, and cut you a check for their idea of its value.

I'm not in NJ, and in no position to offer any advice about their laws, get an actual NJ lawyer for that. Do not take any legal advice from any cop as valid or correct. They may (or may not) give you what they believe to be an honest answer, but it's not their area of expertise, and there is no legal requirement for them to provide you valid information. Its not their job.

And saying "a cop told me it was legal" is not a very good defense.
If it is any defense at all...
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Old July 1, 2024, 03:47 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by 44 AMP
IF the gun has any emotional value to you, I would advise against carrying it, daily or other wise.

Besides the wear on the finish that will inevitably result, the biggest reason not to carry a gun with irreplaceable emotional value is the risk you will lose it. And I don't mean, "it fell into the swamp and sank out of sight", I mean that if you ever have to use it defensively, the police WILL TAKE IT.

It is evidence, and stays evidence, until ALL legal matters involved are concluded. This might be a matter of days, or weeks, but could be months or even years, depending on the specific involved. And the police are not noted for taking good care of guns in "evidence". Rust, finish, and even mechanical damage are not unknown, and in some instances, not terribly uncommon.

Additionally, there is a risk that even with you completely exonerated and all legal proceedings completed, you still may never see that gun again. There are /have been places where the authorities simply will not return your gun, and may even destroy it, and cut you a check for their idea of its value.
This is excellent advice which I concur with completely. I have several handguns myself that, while excellent guns that would be well-suited to carry, I use only for range and collecting purposes because they are rare/expensive enough that they'd be very difficult to replace or because they have sentimental value (family heirlooms, gifts from close friends/family, etc.) that cannot be replaced at any price. The advice that I generally give is, unless you have no other option, don't carry any gun that you can't replace easily and affordably.
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Old July 13, 2024, 02:06 PM   #46
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The first step in Seecamp trouble shooting is the recoil spring. My 380 manual says replacement at 200 rounds and 32 is permanent. They're around 10 bucks.

Oh, I also seem to recall a cartridge length gauge you can buy to vet ammo.
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Old July 16, 2024, 03:19 PM   #47
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Apparently the OP, USAFUNDING" doesn't really "NEED HELP" since he hasn't logged in since the very minute he posted this thread. So it seems taking any more time to answer his question is a wasted effort.

If he does want to revisit this thread he can PM me to re-open it.

Closed.
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