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Old June 21, 2024, 04:21 PM   #101
Webleymkv
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I should clarify when I said the performance of FMJ against automobiles, I wasn't referring necessarily to.45 ACP specifically but rather to the performance difference noted in the podcast between FMJ and modern JHP ammunition in all service calibers.
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Old June 21, 2024, 04:36 PM   #102
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Does anyone know what the ST 9mm bullet that stopped just short of the heart looked like after the autopsy? Was it indeed fully expanded, suffered a separated core and jacket or had the hollow point packed with different materials?

I did a search but couldn’t find this information.
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Old June 21, 2024, 08:45 PM   #103
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Anderson's book does show some of the bullets, but not that one.
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Old June 21, 2024, 08:56 PM   #104
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Thanks John
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Old June 22, 2024, 10:44 AM   #105
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Does anyone know what the ST 9mm bullet that stopped just short of the heart looked like after the autopsy? Was it indeed fully expanded, suffered a separated core and jacket or had the hollow point packed with different materials?
Yes.

Doctor Anderson refers to the bullet as "mushroomed" and does not indicate that the x-ray shows any bullet fragments that would lead us to think it broke up.

You might be interested in this highly detailed commentary on Anderson's work.

It is in many ways far more complete and precise than the flawed FBI reports.

https://holtz.org/Library/Social%20S...20shootout.htm
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Old June 22, 2024, 01:43 PM   #106
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So it performed as required, just a difficult angle with multiple body parts to obstruct it’s path.
Hind sight is always 20/20 and as discussed and agreed upon by many who have experience deer hunting, had it managed to penetrate Platt’s heart the outcome may have still been the same.

Good read.
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Old June 22, 2024, 02:05 PM   #107
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So it performed as required, just a difficult angle with multiple body parts to obstruct it’s path.
Hind sight is always 20/20 and as discussed and agreed upon by many who have experience deer hunting, had it managed to penetrate Platt’s heart the outcome may have still been the same.

Good read.
Not only that.......I haven't read it carefully with a diagram but it looks like that bullet might have gone through a car window or two before it hit Platt!!!

That would INDEED be a bullet that did not fail.
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Old June 22, 2024, 02:24 PM   #108
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Hard to believed it could expand properly after that.
I only ever shot 1 living thing with a 115 gr ST, a skunk in our pole barn.

Lucky shot in the head from about 15 yds and he didn’t spray.
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Old June 22, 2024, 02:30 PM   #109
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One body part, to be completely accurate. It went through the right upper arm at an angle, striking a little above the elbow and exiting a bit below the armpit--maybe 5" of penetration, before exiting the upper arm, re-entering the body under the arm already expanded, and then penetrating another 6-7" in the chest. It stopped just short of the midline--in the XRay it is shown actually overlapping the right edge of the spine slightly.

The underarm exit required stretching the skin/tissue of the arm 2-3" in addition to the penetration in the upper arm, for whatever that is worth.

Platt was 5' 10" and about 210lbs at the time of the shooting, for reference.

The diagrams in Anderson's book show Platt had partially exited the vehicle when he was hit--there was no need for the bullet to penetrate any part of the car. The linked report refers to the diagrams (II-1 and II-2), but I didn't see a way to view the figures in the online report. Anderson's book is still available for purchase--I can't remember what I paid for my copy but I don't remember thinking it was priced unreasonably.
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Old June 22, 2024, 02:59 PM   #110
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One body part, to be completely accurate. It went through the right upper arm at an angle, striking a little above the elbow and exiting a bit below the armpit--maybe 5" of penetration, before exiting the upper arm, re-entering the body under the arm already expanded, and then penetrating another 6-7" in the chest. It stopped just short of the midline--in the XRay it is shown actually overlapping the right edge of the spine slightly.

The underarm exit required stretching the skin/tissue of the arm 2-3" in addition to the penetration in the upper arm, for whatever that is worth.

Platt was 5' 10" and about 210lbs at the time of the shooting, for reference.

The diagrams in Anderson's book show Platt had partially exited the vehicle when he was hit--there was no need for the bullet to penetrate any part of the car. The linked report refers to the diagrams (II-1 and II-2), but I didn't see a way to view the figures in the online report. Anderson's book is still available for purchase--I can't remember what I paid for my copy but I don't remember thinking it was priced unreasonably.
That book costs a small fortune right now. I wish I had a dozen to sell.

And here's a quote on the bullet path.

Quote:
Figure II-1 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an overhead illustration that depicts the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, McNeill’s car, Manauzzi’s car, Grogan/Dove’s car, and an uninvolved civilian car (Cutlass). Dove is depicted firing his gun at Platt from behind his open passenger side door and shows the path of the bullet leaving the muzzle of Dove’s gun, across the trunk of the Monte Carlo, through the rear passenger compartment window of the Monte Carlo, through a passenger side window of the Monte Carlo and hitting Platt’s right upper arm as he’s crawling out the passenger side window of the Monte Carlo.
If that's the same one that ended up an inch from the heart.......that was one tough miracle silvertip.



Edit: I think he was on the hood of the Cutlass when hit.......that would make more sense.

Last edited by The Verminator; June 22, 2024 at 03:29 PM.
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Old June 22, 2024, 03:51 PM   #111
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Yes, that's the one that almost made it to the heart.

That's very interesting on the quote. The book shows the actual diagrams, so there's no description of their contents.

Nothing in the book states that the bullet passed through glass before hitting Platt, and I've never seen any other source that says it had passed through any kind of barrier (let alone two) before hitting Platt's arm.

Figure II-2 does show a sketch with Platt's arm below the level of the top of the car. If he really was hit at that point, by Dove (and his and Dove's position were reflected correctly in the diagram), then the bullet would have had to go through the Monte Carlo rear window and then out the passenger rear side window.

The photos of the scene do show bullet damage to the rear compartment window, but it's not clear if that was caused by the bullet that hit Platt or if it was shot out before or after he was hit. I can't find a clear picture of the passenger rear side window.

It's also possible that Platt raised up higher than the sketch shows when exiting the Monte Carlo, or that Dove moved to his right for the shot, in which case the bullet could have had an unobstructed path.

Without video of the shooting, or very careful examination of the bullet to look for embedded glass fragments or some other telltale evidence, I don't think we will ever know for sure if it actually broke through any glass or not.

However, if it really did take that path, then there's a chance it could have broken through two windows since the rear side windows of the Monte Carlo could not be lowered/opened and any path through the rear passenger compartment window would have had to exit through a rear side window to get to Platt.

Interesting that possibility has never been raised before on any of these discussions. That would be pretty impressive performance. Going through two pieces of glass, then 11-12" of target penetration would be hard to reasonably qualify as a failure in bullet performance.
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Old June 22, 2024, 04:15 PM   #112
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I think all this discussion of bullet performance on human attackers clearly illustrates how poorly handguns “stop” people through actual wounding.

Handgun are emergency life saving devices. When nothing else is handy, i can have a handgun on my person. If i know, or think there is going to be a need for shooting a life threatening human…im using a Rifle (and hopefully have a few friends with Rifles).

My hand gun is a last ditch, caught off guard option
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Old June 22, 2024, 05:00 PM   #113
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A solid bullet can penetrate through a fat guys arm and still pierce the heart. A hole in the heart will kill him before he hits the ground. I've shot plenty of deer in the heart and they are all dead right there. All this bullet technology stuff is just marketing.
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Old June 22, 2024, 05:54 PM   #114
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Then you have tougher deer than we do in Texas.
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Old June 22, 2024, 07:41 PM   #115
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A solid bullet can penetrate through a fat guys arm and still pierce the heart. A hole in the heart will kill him before he hits the ground. I've shot plenty of deer in the heart and they are all dead right there. All this bullet technology stuff is just marketing.
Wrong.

Deer hardly ever drop where they are unless spine or brain are hit. I say this with over 60 years of deer hunting with a large party of friends and relatives and literally hundreds of deer taken by that group of hunters.

Study this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ajfuoLQb74
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Old June 24, 2024, 01:06 PM   #116
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Originally posted by Super Sneaky Steve
A solid bullet can penetrate through a fat guys arm and still pierce the heart. A hole in the heart will kill him before he hits the ground. I've shot plenty of deer in the heart and they are all dead right there. All this bullet technology stuff is just marketing.
While a heart shot is probably among the fastest and most reliable incapacitation you can get short of a CNS hit, it's still no guarantee. A very close relative once told me, and this was confirmed by several other people who were there, that he shot a deer with a 20 gauge rifled slug and the animal was still able to run 50+ yards before collapsing and being finished by another slug to the head. Upon field dressing the deer, it was found that the first shot had completely severed its aorta, which should have caused just as fast, if not faster, drop in blood pressure as a heart shot yet it was still able to run a good distance and wasn't dead, or even unconscious, when found.
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Old June 24, 2024, 05:17 PM   #117
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deer & Homestead FL

I expect any deer I shoot .....with anything ......to run. A deer that drops at the shot is a bonus in my experience and not the norm. If I can dictate the shot placement, I'll choose heart/lung. If for some reason the bullet hits the shoulder blade, an upper shoulder/legbone, , or gets close the spine, (all possible when shooting down at steep angles, as from treestands in close) there sometimes does seem to be disconnect to the CNS and they MIGHT drop, but I don't expect it. A rough count in my mind comes up with 7 different cartridges, all the same result.

I've been to the Homestead/Miami shoot out scene, walked the ground/street. The distances were shorter than what I expected, despite studying the photos of the scene. Still challenging handgun shots, piece of cake for a guy with a carbine. Today, forty years later, Platt/Mattox would never be purposely confronted with officers armed almost solely with handguns and no body armor. The Bureau had an MP5 and an AR with other agents,but they did not make it to the fight in time. The FBI shotgun in play, loaded with buckshot (OO?) was largely ineffective.

I'm well acquainted with a guy who is very familiar on the FBI shootout and is published and letures on the tactical or lack of aspect of the incident. I was not aware of ANDERSON book and hope to locate a copy.
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Old June 24, 2024, 11:04 PM   #118
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Here's a link to the book.

https://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Anal.../dp/1581604904

It's got some interesting information in it. Nothing really earth-shattering, but for someone interested in the topic, it's probably worth the read.

It is not a large book, by the way, more like a bound report than anything else.
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Old June 25, 2024, 10:29 AM   #119
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I expect any deer I shoot .....with anything ......to run. A deer that drops at the shot is a bonus in my experience and not the norm. If I can dictate the shot placement, I'll choose heart/lung.
The "High Lung Shot" is actually a thing well-known to old deer hunters.

It catches the top of both lungs and is high enough so it gets close enough to the spine to stun and drop the deer in its tracks.

The inexperienced hunter tends to aim at the shoulder and too low.

The point of impact should always be BEHIND the shoulder and high.

Of course you do need to be using a good high velocity round like the .270 Winchester to ensure enough disruption to injure the spine, but the high lung shot will often drop deer in their tracks.

Even if it doesn't drop them, this shot will cause both lungs to quickly fill with blood and suffocate the deer.

The heart shot low in the lungs leaves the deer more breathing space for a longer time.

Filling the lungs with blood is the key--this is why heart shots will usually allow the deer to run farther--as much as 100 to 150 yards farther.

This might not cause a problem out west, but it CAN make finding the deer quite difficult in an Eastern swamp with heavy brush.
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Old June 25, 2024, 01:26 PM   #120
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I’ve had One animal shot through the heart go down where it was standing.
It was about a 150lb boar
50-60 yds
120gr .257 Hornady HP out of a 25-06
It was almost dark so all I could do was lower my scope in order to see the crosshairs and raise it until they disappeared, that’s when I squeezed the trigger.
His heart exploded, impact velocity was very high.
I wouldn’t say this was typical for me.
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Old June 25, 2024, 02:38 PM   #121
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hmmmm i snuck a 6mm 105gr bthp pill traveling about 3k ft/s in the side window of a white tails chest, about 30% of the near lung, all the heart and far lung exited garage door opposite side, along with about half of that rib set... deer ran 25 yards. go figure.


i try to not shoot them at less than 20 yds any more.


sorry: that was totally off topic, i'll refrain
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Old June 25, 2024, 06:37 PM   #122
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https://share.icloud.com/photos/060Z...jWjbPqq4feNz8Q

I was shooting at a friends, private shooting range in the mountains of Tennessee staying at the range cabin for a few days.
One evening after shooting rifles I was a little bored and I started firing at steel 100 yards.
I'm not sure what was in the pistol. It was either Federal 230 grain full metal jacket or Winchester full metal jacket 230 grain.
I fired about 20 rounds and got three hits.
I might've been able to do better, but I couldn't tell where the misses were landing.
What shocked me was the three hits were all laying at the bottom of the target.
They were pancaked to about the thickness of a dime.
?wow?
I could not tell which was the nose of the bullet and which was the base.
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