Personal Affronts and Insults -- A Question

[Tamara]

There is an element of the law called disparity of force. Old men are not expected to fight 200 pound muscle bound hotheads.

This is fine and dandy if the 200lb, musclebound hotheads in question formally challenge you to a fight while outside a twenty-foot radius. What are your plans if they challenge you by taking you to the ground from behind?

[XavierBreath]

Folks, as I was getting dressed to go to work today, I took a look at myself. On my belt was a gun, a spare magazine, a cell phone and a pager. Heck, a little more stuff and I would look like a cop. It ain't the weight on the belt, it's the length of the belt.

At one time, I carried pepper spray, mainly for dogs. I used it on a dog actually. I was amazed that it squirted a thin stream about 5 feet and petered out. I don't know if the cannister lost pressure over time or what, but I was not impressed. Did I get bit? No, but I had to think if that dog had been a determined man, I would be in trouble. We all advocate testing our defensive guns for reliability, yet advocate carrying a cannister of spray that we have not pressure tested. After that incident, I looked for a different approach for dogs. That's all in a different thread though.

Tam, a J frame works wonders if someone takes you to the ground from behind. A belly gun will work where pepper spray will not. If I am on the ground in a struggle the last thing I want to do is cover the other guy, and therefore myself with pepper spray. Likewise I do not want to shock him and therefore shock myself.

The scenerio presented is a jerk wanting a fight, threatening you verbally. This would be done initially from the front. You do not ever turn away from an aggressor. You back away. The words are not enough to cause me to produce a weapon. The attack is.

The best response to the man who wants to "kick your ass" is to politely agree with him and leave. It's hard to continue an argument with someone who agrees with you. Heck, make him happy. Agree with him and leave. It's a matter of deescalation, not spraying him, shocking him or shooting him. It's not a matter of being a doormat or saving face either, it's a matter of surviving intact and not wasting your time with a jerk. If you enter the confrontation in any way, your time will be spent with the police whether you were right or wrong. If I am unable to deescalate the confrontation though, I want an effective, tested weapon.

DarkKnight, you are assuming that you will win a physical fight. If you are relatively sure that you will be on your back, choking on your blood, blind from swollen eyelids, and deaf from kicks to the head in a minute or two of slinging fists, at what point do you draw your weapon or decide to trust your aggressor with your life? Do you let the fight begin to see? Everyone is not able to go toe to toe with a man intent on giving them a beating. If they were, the aggressor would not be so bold in the first place.

FWIW, my time of greatest vulnerability is the exit from my patient's homes and the reentry to my vehicle (a SUV). The second most vulnerable is when I am loading stuff into that SUV in a parking lot. I do keep a baseball bat in the back of the SUV for these instances. I also keep a Super Soaker full of ammonia for dogs. I obviously can't go walking around with a bat though, but it does give me a secondary weapon I know I can depend on when I am most vulnerable.

How did we get off of trashed lawns and loud parties & onto this? I'm over my self imposed two post per thread limit again now......

[mvpel]

DarkKnight01 wrote:

XavierBreath: u do make some valid points, but im not sure if such a physical threat would warrant murdering them...

First of all, the word "murder" is not appropriate in describing defensive shootings. "Murder" is a specific legal term with a specific meaning that does not apply to killing someone in defense of your life or your safety.

In order to successfully claim justification in killing someone, there must be a few different elements met, and what you'll commonly hear about is the "reasonable man" standard - that is, if a reasonable person, given the facts, would have come to the same conclusion you did.

There is also the doctrine of "competing harms" - that is, if breaking a particular law will result in less harm than obeying the law, then that is a defense against breaking the law, unless you were reckless or negligent in bringing about that choice of harms - e.g., screaming "you're a p*ssy!!!" in the face of a large man who's threatened you could well be considered reckless, and if you shoot him when he lunges for you, you may have a hard time making a case for your defense against a murder charge.

In order to use deadly force under the law, the fundamental principle is that the individual must reasonably believe that the attacker is imminently about to use deadly force or commit "great bodily harm" (i.e., an "ass-kicking") on the defender or another person.

An old man who is not being allowed to graciously retreat from a confrontation with a 200-pound musclehead would certainly have a reasonable belief that he was about to suffer great bodily harm at least. You don't have to wait until he throws the first punch under the law before responding with deadly force - such an attack being reasonably believed to be "imminent" is sufficient.

If the attacker would not permit a completely safe retreat, then "He COULD have beat me to death, I'm just an old man," is all the defense he would need under the law.

You and I and old men are not cops, we are not required to use the least amount of force necessary to apprehend a suspect with pepper spray, tasers, Monadnocks, and what have you. We are merely required to use our best efforts to de-escalate and escape from a confrontation, and refrain from using deadly force unless and until we are put in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm by the attacker.

Finally, I submit that it is not normal for a young man to go around picking fights with people to "prove his dominance," "red-blooded" and "full of testosterone" or not.

Perhaps you are from a someplace where the right to armed self-defense is sharply limited or prohibited, such as Boston, DC, NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco, where young men feel they can be rude, aggressive, and threatening to weaker strangers without any risk or consequences, or somewhere where young men from those places tend to gather - Mardi Gras? Spring Break in Florida?

[XavierBreath]

Thank you mvpel.

[DarkKnight01]

"DarkKnight, you are assuming that you will win a physical fight."

well im not assuming... but the odds are on my side.. 19 years of training in the arts has brought me some confidence in dealing with punks with an attitude problem... i prefer not to which is why i have other tools... such as a cell phone with 911 on speed dial.. if your calling the police and telling them your about to be assaulted... that will generally end a conflict.. if it doesnt u have to keep your options open.

and thanks for clearing up some things mvpel.. i still believe a strong prosecution could find alot of leeway with this.. thats my opinion.

and yea we did wander off subject a bit heh, Xaviers post made me do some thinking and i wanted some clarification.

[warhammer357]

Im a notorious redneck, but in general, when I am armed I make sure I am extra polite.
Come on. In the oferffete civilized world we live in today, its just not worth the aggravation of having to take the chance of being booked on an assault charge to give in to the inner John Wayne that lives in all of us.
I agree with Denny.
Let it slide, and laugh at the fool who tempted fate.
The great pulp author Robert E. Howard once had a smart character look at his barbarian hero Kull of Atlantis and say, "I could summon up a demon more fierce than all those in hell, if I were to smack your face."
Think about that, chuckle at the knucklheads, and move on.

[John Ringo]

I have learned to let 99% of physical confrontations pass despite being a pretty muscular guy with a good 10 years of martial arts & boxing behind me. There are just too many factors which could put your physical health in danger. When you get into a physical confrontation you never know exactly who you are dealing with.

Prime example: one of my buddies in college was a normal-sized guy that nobody every really would consider a threat. But he did have a little bit of a temper problem when he drank alcohol. The problem that most people had with him was that they had no idea that he was a three-time Ohio champion kickboxer and ex-Navy SEAL. That was one boy that you would not want to tangle with in a street fight.

My point here is that sometimes you never know who or what you are squaring-off with in a street fight. The best defense is to leave the situation as quickly as possible.

[Igloodude]

With most folks here citing various hand-to-hand training and experience, I feel a bit left out - I've always been on the opposite end of the spectrum; in shape or not, I am not particularly physically coordinated, and I look more imposing than I am. I wouldn't trust my odds in a weaponless fight (or for that matter, even if I did have a weapon). My line of thinking when there is a conflict that I need to disengage from is not "I could beat them down but I don't want to get arrested" but rather "I don't want to get my ass beat."

Carrying a concealed firearm hasn't changed that in any fundamental way, by the way.

For those (few) of you who have a tough time backing off from applying some percussive maintenance to someone who clearly requires it, might I suggest reviewing and applying the Pyramid Theory? It states that everyone in the world has a position within the Pyramid of Life. Honorable/upstanding/common-sense-equipped/smart/reasonable/nice people are towards the top, and evil/lying/slimy/moronic/badguy people (you can adjust and fill in altitude-adjusting characteristics as necessary) are towards the bottom, both with altitude varying according to how good or bad they are. Most people (or at any rate, most people on this board) tend to position themselves somewhere near the top, and strive to reach the pointy tip.

When someone cuts you off in traffic, is rude to you, does something really stupid, etc, instead of responding in kind or cussing them out or whupping their ass, simply smile at them and thank them - they're simply demonstrating to you that they're supporting you (and probably, many many others) in being one of the lower blocks of the pyramid.

[John Ringo]

Excellent post Igloo !!!!!!

[mvpel]

and thanks for clearing up some things mvpel.. i still believe a strong prosecution could find alot of leeway with this.. thats my opinion.

Oh, and you're absolutely right about that. A gun-hating prosecutor and a rubber-stamp grand jury could make your life and your bank account absolutely miserable for a very long time, even if you did absolutely nothing wrong and actually deserve a medal for your restraint and professionalism in defending your life or someone else's.

You just have to hope that your expert witness dazzles and you and your other witnesses come across as 100% credible and sincere, and best case, that the guy who attacked you has a list of drunken assault arrests on his record.

That's why the first course of action is to get away if at all possible, because even a 100.00% justified shooting brings a raft of emotional and financial baggage and risks along with it.

[XavierBreath]

A strong prosecution can find a lot of leeway in a lot of things. Totally innocent people have been incarcerated for crime they did not commit. The only way to make sure you will not be prosecuted is to die. Prosecutors rarely go after dead people. I'm not willing to die to avoid prosecution.

As an example, why don't you tell us from this list who should go toe to toe with a 20 year old 200 pound musclehead who throws a punch rather than shoot him, and who you feel has a right to shoot?

A 70 year old woman who weighs 110 pounds
A 70 pound man who weighs 120 pounds
A 25 year old woman who is pregnant
A 25 year old woman who is not pregnant
A 25 year old man paralyzed from the waist down
A 25 year old man
A 5 year old child

I would submit to you sir, that none of these people deserve to be beaten. None of them deserve to be killed and buried because some hothead would not leave them alone. And futhermore, you, sir, by entering into that fight are taking the risk that your opponent will not die by your hand. So you see, the best action is deescalation.

[Danindetroit]

Personally I preferred to be the person who would jump in front of the older, smaller, or whateverperson and ask Mr. 200lbs. if he preferred to vent on me, and let the other person get out of dodge. Do not know how that rates in a pyraimid, but I have done it, and would still try to do it. If more people did that instead of just ignoring stuff, people could get out there aggressive tendencies in a better method, and maybe they would learn how to channel energy to better uses. Did not do it to be a hero just thought I was better equipped to either take an a**whoopin', or deliver one. By the way have had an older whitehaired man flip my wife off, and yell at her, when first married, old guy did not realise I was driving behind and saw the whole thing. It just is not punks, who seem to have these problems.

[DarkKnight01]

XavierBreath: "A 70 pound man who weighs 120 pounds"

umm what? lol isnt that a bit of a conflict? heh i think i know what u mean... and i really try not to judge people by their size age or weight... strength comes from within.. ive studied with old men that walked with canes and looked rickety (sp) as an old chair... but as soon as they got onto the training mat they were untouchable... as 50+ years of training in the arts has taught them to tap into other sources of power... i do recommend to anyone that i get into the conversation of conflict with to take up martial arts, as its great for the mind body and soul... and in your late age as youve stated it would most certainly be beneficial... in more ways than one... if it comes to that hot head taking you by surprise you need to have more than just a gun to rely on... a well executed technique can quickly render anyone helpless and in a great deal of pain...

what im trying to get at is the same as i stated above... u need to have options. what happens if your disarmed in an encounter? without your gun what are u gonna do then? use harsh language? thats hardly effective... keep your options open as there is always different levels of defence and combat, only having the extremity available is not a good idea.

[DarkKnight01]

Danindetroit: im with u on that one... there has been a few times ive saved women from severe beatings from large men who thought they were men... but when faced by a real man they turned into a little b*tch who only wanted to run and hide... which i wouldnt allow them to do.. being as likely theyve beaten their women and children in several cases i wanted them to know what it felt like... luckily these few instances didnt land me in jail... i have no problem with dishing out an a** whipping to someone that well deserves it..

[Danindetroit]

Something I learned playing team sports was the point, and yell a name, and pass the opposite direction, or use the person's sliding over to block the pass to go around someone. You could try, in a parking lot if you happen to see somebody who doen't look right, yelling "Hey jim did you get that 9mm and .45 ammo, yea we can just head to the gunrange now and start shooting. If they start looking around for somebody you jnow something is up, and can get in your vehicle, call the police, and move you and your vehicle a safe distance and keep on eye on this person. It sound corny and some people might look at you funny, but you know you are just being safe. BG's do not want attention. I bully will want to know if someone is behind you. If you have keyless entry, just push the panic alarm.

[Danindetroit]

DK I have had baloney sandwiches in many of detroit's precincts, and macomb county and wayne county jails. Most just stupid stuff. When me and my friends went out we never had fighting on our minds, it was girls. When partying downtown, being nice to "streetpeople" buying them food, and giving them a beer, and talking to them did more to protect your car than any kind of security system.

I learned to fight for principles, growing up where I grew up I had a lot of black friends. They came over to my house and I went over to their house. My parents were polish in the 40's and 50's in Detroit, I suspect they were called polacks, and discriminated against. My father had his 8 front teeth knocked out with a baseball bat at 17, and had partial dentures. He managed a bar in detroit to put himself through college. One memory that is burned in my mind is when 1 of my friends was over and said that he would rather be white. My dad looked at him kind of weird and asked why? My friend said because white people aren't called N*****s. My dad looked at me and said if you hear anybody call somebody that you tell them to stop, and he said if they didn't punch them right in the nose. My parents are the most non-predjudiced people I know, they lean a little to the left, and I don't get along with them, but I have to give them credit for that.

In a group I was first to get in between people. I never stopped fights by the beat one guy down method, it was pull people off a friend, throw a punch and get out. At college parties, stuff just would happen in an instant, and people would tell me they just saw me throw people off them, and then we got out. Like I said it was survival, It just wasn't a conscious thing.

[XavierBreath]

FWIW, I am not a 70 year old 120 pound man. I do, however, give care to those who have suffered subdural hematomas, broken bones, bone punctured and collapsed lungs, and more at the hands of those who think they can control the flow of another person's life from their body. As I stated before in this thread, I have heard more than once "I never meant to kill him. All I meant to do was teach him a lesson."

I will not devote myself to martial arts. I devote myself to saving the people who think they can survive a streetfight without a debilitating injury or death. That takes about 12 hours out of each of my days. The world has changed.

When I was in the military I was in quite a few fights and I have fought hand to hand in combat. I have had my nose broken three times, have had four ribs broken, have been unconscious for three days (and lucky to live), and I have been shot once, all in separate instances. I have persevered in a few fights as well. There are no rules, no referees, and no breaks in a real fight. Martial arts training is about as close to fighting as dancing is to lovemaking. You are making the dangerous assumption that you will never be blinded, knocked unconscious, or fighting with broken bones and choking on blood. I assume that third fellow on your mat would stop your sport if that occured. This is not feudal Japan or Manchuria.

I realize that I am now older, that I do not have to fight, that I may be injured if I do, and that I have a right to be left alone. I respect your sport, but it will not help you when you are fighting with a broken femur. It will not help you when your lungs are full of blood or collapsed. It will not help you as your attacker beats the life out of your unconscious and defenseless body. The gun you could have used would have prevented that.

I hope that you only find superior fighters on the mat, and not in the street.

[Danindetroit]

XB I understand completely, I think SD decisions are very personal things, that can not really be understood over the internet by most people. I respect your opinion. I think you have plans to protect yourself, and know your state's law. I kind of grew up in an era and this is weird where being good weaponless was considered good, and then carrying a "gat", "jimmy", was cool. Where if you bumped somebody, you said excuse me or my fault, to it turned into a what's up thing, you want to fight. I always stayed the first way. I had good health insurance, and did not really cared what happened to me, I absorbed a lot of punishment, because of trying to get in between people, you are liable to get hit from both directions. I have had a nasal septum reconstruction, and most of my front teeth need to be relaced becuse they are chipped to the dentin. You do pay a price.

[DarkKnight01]

XavierBreath: again you make more valid points, but as we know nothing about eachother assuming what u stated may or may not be correct... ive been in more encounters than i care to remember ive been struck with weapons such as pool cues, baseball bats, and axe handles.... they all hurt and did their share of damage, so therefore yes i have been partially disabled during an encounter.. but thanks to my training i was able to remain focused on the situation at hand instead of stopping and worrying about my current internal injuries. thats the part that will get u killed... u first must deal with the threat and then hope for a ride to the hospital to get patched up =)

my main point is again keep your options open, options = life

and your comment to training being compared to real life... that is why its called training... in the military did u fire at live people? no u fired your weapon at a target to get proficient with it... so that when the time came to shoot at live people u could do it effectively... the same goes with any other training... and every dojo varies, as many styles compete... and full contact competition is about as close as one gets to a street encounter.. when it comes to me choking on my blood due to a collapsed lung... likely i wont let it come to this but if it does so be it, if i die its my time, i dont fear death.

if i find a superior fighter on the street thats why i have options.

im now not going to further debate this as you have your opinion and i have mine, and weve both stated ours several times, in my experience options = life

[XavierBreath]

I have but one more thought......
Your training will be what justifies the man who pulls a gun on you. Your abilities will justify his taking your life in self defense. If your body is such a weapon, then a normal man must arm himself against you. All your training is his perfect defense. Consider that.

We may never agree, but we can learn from each other. Shooting a man is much different than shooting paper. Fighting with some bumps and bruises is much different than fighting for the last 5 seconds of consciousness as you suffocate from the blood in your lungs. You have survived all of your fights intact thus far. So have I. The difference, I think, is I have seen people who did not survive, and I realize they are no different from you or me. Hopefully your feelings of immortality will last you a long time.

[DarkKnight01]

how do they know what ive trained in? =)...... they dont.

and feelings of immortality? no... i just simply dont fear death. when its my time ill die and move onto the next phaze.

[DarkKnight01]

and BTW wheres the guy that originally started this thread? hope we didnt scare him off lol. as somewhere in here i think theres some advice on his questions

[John Ringo]

Heck...you guys have me scared :-)

[XavierBreath]

how do they know what ive trained in? =)...... they dont.

It doesn't matter if they knew before, after you have been shot, died, and buried, they will be walking out of court a free man (assuming charges were brought) simply because you were so well trained, and the shooter feared death. Believe me, if you are shot and killed, if charges are brought after you are shot and killed, your years of training will surface. Anything that could mitigate the charges will be brought up in court, and your training is mitigating in the extreme. It could actually be twisted to justify your otherwise unjust shooting. A jury schooled in kung fu movies is just as dangerous as a jury schooled in Hollywood firearms useage. You will be painted as the superhuman DarkKnight, so powerful and well trained that only a bullet could stop you.

Of course this might not matter to you, since you would be just as dead, but if you have children, it might matter to them. Growing up with the stigma of a father who was justly shot and killed is difficult. It would matter to a wife. Even if she did not love you, she could not collect on your life insurance policy. It would matter to a lot of people, but it would matter most of all to the man who killed you and walked away a free man.

[Danindetroit]

XB why could somebody not collect on a life insurance policy?