Talk me into the 40 - Page 2

Kvon2 · June 25, 2017, 10:37 AM

1. I do like that you mentioned that at least PART of the reason for the switch back to 9mm is cost saving

2. I agree with some of the others, I don't love the idea of stopping a car related threat with a hand gun

3. My personal preference for these two calibers is if it's a full size gun I'll take the .40 but if it's a pocket pistol I'd take the 9mm for comfort reasons.

At the end of the day both rounds will get most jobs done pretty well. That's why I own one of each

O4L · June 25, 2017, 11:33 AM

The OP seems to have disappeared on this one but those saying you aren't going to disable a car with a handgun are assuming that is what he meant in the first post.

He asked about barrier penetration on vehicle and specifically mentioned the doors and glass.

I think the intent is to take out the driver to end the threat, not disable the vehicle with a handgun.

JoeSixpack · June 25, 2017, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O4L

The OP seems to have disappeared on this one but those saying you aren't going to disable a car with a handgun are assuming that is what he meant in the first post.

He asked about barrier penetration on vehicle and specifically mentioned the doors and glass.

I think the intent is to take out the driver to end the threat, not disable the vehicle with a handgun.

I agree, I think that's what he meant, I wouldn't even try disabling the car with most rifles, The engine block is really the only section of a normal passenger vehicle you can trust for cover rather then concealment.

9mm will go thru the sheet metal on a card door fairly easily.. in fact you can go thru both sides with the car empty, I don't think a 40 would preform any better in that regard.

problem with shooting thru slated glass is the bullet can often deflect.. you might have the driver lined up but that does not mean that's where the bullets going once it hits the glass.. side windows might be a different story.

I don't know if a faster bullet would preform better on the windshield, I think boarder patrol adopted .357sig and they would have to deal with rogue cars more often then most LE.. But even so I personally wouldn't trade in my 9mm with car threats in mind.

On 2nd thought maybe faster is not the way to go on the windshield, a slower heavy bullet might actually work better.. more mass possibly resistant to deflection?
hmm 230gr 45acp?

UncleEd · June 25, 2017, 01:44 PM

Oh, get the .40 and help prolong the life of a dying cartridge.

Screwball · June 25, 2017, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

I think boarder patrol adopted .357sig

They have been using .40 since the mid-1990s.

bamaranger · June 27, 2017, 01:39 AM

The same technology that has , according to the Bureau, advanced the 9mm back into acceptability, applies to the .40SW (and the .45 acp and others). Our largest, local PD (100 sworn?) has made the jump back to 9mm.....but I suspect the reason is cost and simplicity of ordering ammo. Officers can still carry a variety of handguns so chambered, so commonality on the street is not one of the reasons for the swap to all 9mm locally.

I believe, simply put, the .40 is indeed more gun than the 9mm, with comparable loadings. Further, I think the issue of mag capacity is largely overplayed. The 3-4 extra cartridges one picks up per mag with a 9mm don't really figure into real street shootings. The threat has changed some, but not that much. If one perceives they need more ammo with a .40, add another magazine to your carry package.

TruthTellers · June 27, 2017, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Model12Win

The 10 miker miker has an even better track record for disabling vehicles and neutralizing tangos. The 10 turns cover into concealment better than any Tactical battle cartridge for handguns.

I don't disagree, but the 10mm is a bigger gun than what comes in the 9mm and .40 S&W's do. There's also the question of why do you need a 10mm for concealed carry? If you're expecting on a certain day that you are going to need to shoot somebody, like say, if you're a cop in the SWAT unit, okay, I can see the 10mm as a good choice, but if you're Joe Schmoe and just want to stop an allahu akabar type from cutting your head off on a Facebook live stream after running over people's heads with a truck, I think the 9mm or the .40 S&W is a better choice.

The decision of whether to get a .40 or a 9mm is subjective based on what the subject carrying the gun wants and needs. Personally, I think the .40 is great because even in lower weight projectiles for the cartridge like 135 or 155 grain, they're still more heavier and have more energy than any 9mm +P load, but don't have an insanely higher amount of recoil.

You get a bit more for not a lot more recoil.

EDIT: And you also can quickly convert a .40 into a 9mm with simply a barrel and maybe an extractor and ejector. Converting from 9 to .40 could be impossible and if it is possible, require a whole new slide, which is about the same price as a whole new gun.

Nlight1 · June 27, 2017, 07:21 AM

I prefer 10mm myself

Screwball · June 27, 2017, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nlight1

I prefer 10mm myself

It's a good cartridge.

While some people don't see it being effective, if you may meet four legged threats, definitely a very good option when loaded right. Revolvers work, but 10mm gives you similar power, with faster reloads and usually more capacity.

lamarw · June 27, 2017, 08:02 AM

In recent terrorist attack where vehicles and often large vehicles have been used to mow down pedestrians, it would be a mistake to shoot. There are innocent human victims all around the vehicle and even plastered against the mowing machine. Defensive gun shots would probably strike more innocent victims than terrorist. Rounds fired would also glance off glass and metal with uncontrollable ricochets into the masses.

Attempts at being the savior or a hero could place you in very legal trouble.

ShootistPRS · June 27, 2017, 11:23 AM

The difference between 9mm and 40S&W is that the 40 will fire heavier and larger bullets at the same velocity as the 9mm. It is very simply a ballistically superior cartridge. The 40 is a better cartridge for self defense or for out in the woods.
Any time you throw heavier bullets at higher velocities you are going to have more recoil but the 40 has less recoil than a lot of other guns and unless you are using it in a compact pistol it is easily controllable.

SocialAnarchist · June 27, 2017, 11:44 AM

How about this viewpoint. If you have to be convinced by others to buy a .40 then what's the point? I buy what I want, not what someone convinces me to buy.

If you want a .40, for whatever reason you can justify, then go buy one. If you don't want one bad enough to justify buying it on your own then stay with you 9mm.

ATN082268 · June 27, 2017, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

In recent terrorist attack where vehicles and often large vehicles have been used to mow down pedestrians, it would be a mistake to shoot. There are innocent human victims all around the vehicle and even plastered against the mowing machine. Defensive gun shots would probably strike more innocent victims than terrorist. Rounds fired would also glance off glass and metal with uncontrollable ricochets into the masses.

Attempts at being the savior or a hero could place you in very legal trouble.

Naturally you wouldn't shoot through other people to your target

I think the real danger though is what happens to the vehicle after it and/or driver is shot. By shooting the driver and/or vehicle, you could make the situation worse and it might be hard to prove that you made the situation better.

Kvon2 · June 27, 2017, 05:32 PM

Quote:

How about this viewpoint. If you have to be convinced by others to buy a .40 then what's the point? I buy what I want, not what someone convinces me to buy.

If you want a .40, for whatever reason you can justify, then go buy one. If you don't want one bad enough to justify buying it on your own then stay with you 9mm.

^we need more of this kind of thinking.

lamarw · June 27, 2017, 05:55 PM

Not saying one would intentionally shoot through people. There was testimony the other day in a police shooting about the time to make the decision to shoot to the time for a round to strike. I do not recall the exact time, but it seemed the officer took over a second. The expert witness seemed to consider this as plausible. This is not bullet travel time but rather human reaction time to a threat. In this type of situation a lot can change in a fraction of a second. This was my intended point.

std7mag · June 28, 2017, 06:38 PM

Heck NO!!!

I sold my 40 for a reason... Several actually...

sorefoot · June 28, 2017, 08:07 PM

What I would do is go to a wrecking yard, buy a crappy car, and shoot it. I'll tell you that a pistol isn't going to make a difference despite what a bunch of people who've never done it might tell you. And, when you do shoot through window glass, the bullet goes in very wonky directions which are somewhat predictable if the car is still and you have some time to think about it.

As far as actually stopping a car itself, even a .223 or .308 is iffy at best.

I would buy whatever you shoot well and enjoy shooting because that's what you'll practice the most with.

I can't speak for every LE agency but a lot of them are going to 9s because you can carry more bullets and make faster follow-up shots.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jackstrawIII · July 1, 2017, 10:27 AM

It's been debated a million times and each time it's been shown that the difference between the handgun cartridges isn't worth the time it takes to debate.

Yet I still always read these threads.

JoeSixpack · July 1, 2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwball

They have been using .40 since the mid-1990s.

Ya, Looks like I was mistaken.
Wonder why I thought they was using .357sig *scratches head*

Quote:

Originally Posted by SocialAnarchist

How about this viewpoint. If you have to be convinced by others to buy a .40 then what's the point? I buy what I want, not what someone convinces me to buy.

If you want a .40, for whatever reason you can justify, then go buy one. If you don't want one bad enough to justify buying it on your own then stay with you 9mm.

Oh he will..
The OP already made up his mind subconsciously.. it just hasn't fully been accepted by his conscious mind yet.

He's lusting for a .40, eventually he'll succumb to his craving and get one.. Probably within the next month.

He was just looking for someone to rationalize or justify the decision to relive him self of some of the burden of having to make the decision.
It's a foregone conclusion he will buy one.

MarkCO · July 1, 2017, 10:50 AM

The rise of the .40 had as much to do with USPSA's power factor requirement as anything else. Now with the three hottest divisions being 9mm biased, the .40 is fading. The actual difference between 9mm and .40S&W is minimal at best in terms of stopping threats, and both are a compromise between a knife and a long gun.

Barrier defeat (to stop the threat on the other side of metal, glass or drywall) is actually more easily done with some 9mm bullets. Stopping actual vehicles...not going to be fast or effective with either.

rifleman0311 · July 2, 2017, 12:40 AM

Thanks everyone for the replies!! Of course I never intended to stop a vehicle with a pistol. 3 tours between Iraq and Afghanistan have proven to me that when rounds strike things they tend to travel in the path of least resistance. I also never intended to get into a caliber war but many of you brought up some very good points. I love guns; almost anything that goes bang. I looked into the 357 Sig and it seems to be what I'm looking for. I will admit I have never shot one but I've got a kkm en route to drop in the G23. Thanks for the help everyone

Kvon2 · July 2, 2017, 08:46 AM

Some .40 sw guns can be converted to .357 sig with literally just a barrel swap(sorry if this has already been said). Might be worth it to have both!

Ibmikey · July 2, 2017, 11:31 AM

Read post 37 by SocialAnarchist, it sums up the OP's original questions nicely. The two pages of killing cars and caliber comparisons are indicative of how quickly these posts can move from the original topic to senseless rhetoric.
Oh yeah, did anyone notice the OP disappeared very quickly? Apparently he lost interest very rapidly.

TailGator · July 2, 2017, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Oh yeah, did anyone notice the OP disappeared very quickly? Apparently he lost interest very rapidly.

Or not - you missed post 46.

JoeSixpack · July 2, 2017, 05:54 PM

I looked at the "car killing" merrits of each caliber as somewhat of a side topic.

I think most people realized he was not going for the engine block.

I gave answers for both scenarios, but I'll reiterate.. my primary concern would be deflection going thru the windshield.. bullets can behave weird going thru slanted safety glass and don't always go where you expect them to.

thru the side of the car door would probably be your best bet.. I don't advocate firing into a car just cause it jumped a curb, it may not be intentional (medical emergency) and killing the driver probably won't stop the car anyway.

That's assuming you can avoid hitting any bystanders you're trying to save on the busy sidewalk in the first place.

I would not trade my 9mm in for a .40 with the forethought of shooting the rogue driver of a motor vehicle.

I think the OP will end up with a .40 in any event and just wanted a nudge or validation to give in to their desire.. it'll happen either way it just would happen faster if we all say "YA man go get .40"

June 27, 2017, 01:39 AM	#31
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	.40 vs. other cals The same technology that has , according to the Bureau, advanced the 9mm back into acceptability, applies to the .40SW (and the .45 acp and others). Our largest, local PD (100 sworn?) has made the jump back to 9mm.....but I suspect the reason is cost and simplicity of ordering ammo. Officers can still carry a variety of handguns so chambered, so commonality on the street is not one of the reasons for the swap to all 9mm locally. I believe, simply put, the .40 is indeed more gun than the 9mm, with comparable loadings. Further, I think the issue of mag capacity is largely overplayed. The 3-4 extra cartridges one picks up per mag with a 9mm don't really figure into real street shootings. The threat has changed some, but not that much. If one perceives they need more ammo with a .40, add another magazine to your carry package.

June 27, 2017, 07:21 AM	#33
Nlight1 Member Join Date: June 19, 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 89	Talk me into the 40 I prefer 10mm myself

June 28, 2017, 08:07 PM	#42
sorefoot Member Join Date: June 30, 2015 Posts: 22	Talk me into the 40 What I would do is go to a wrecking yard, buy a crappy car, and shoot it. I'll tell you that a pistol isn't going to make a difference despite what a bunch of people who've never done it might tell you. And, when you do shoot through window glass, the bullet goes in very wonky directions which are somewhat predictable if the car is still and you have some time to think about it. As far as actually stopping a car itself, even a .223 or .308 is iffy at best. I would buy whatever you shoot well and enjoy shooting because that's what you'll practice the most with. I can't speak for every LE agency but a lot of them are going to 9s because you can carry more bullets and make faster follow-up shots. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

July 1, 2017, 10:27 AM	#43
jackstrawIII Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2016 Location: Upstate NY. Posts: 901	It's been debated a million times and each time it's been shown that the difference between the handgun cartridges isn't worth the time it takes to debate. Yet I still always read these threads. __________________ In God we trust.

July 1, 2017, 10:50 AM	#45
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	The rise of the .40 had as much to do with USPSA's power factor requirement as anything else. Now with the three hottest divisions being 9mm biased, the .40 is fading. The actual difference between 9mm and .40S&W is minimal at best in terms of stopping threats, and both are a compromise between a knife and a long gun. Barrier defeat (to stop the threat on the other side of metal, glass or drywall) is actually more easily done with some 9mm bullets. Stopping actual vehicles...not going to be fast or effective with either. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

June 25, 2017, 10:37 AM	#26
Kvon2 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 757	1. I do like that you mentioned that at least PART of the reason for the switch back to 9mm is cost saving 2. I agree with some of the others, I don't love the idea of stopping a car related threat with a hand gun 3. My personal preference for these two calibers is if it's a full size gun I'll take the .40 but if it's a pocket pistol I'd take the 9mm for comfort reasons. At the end of the day both rounds will get most jobs done pretty well. That's why I own one of each

June 25, 2017, 11:33 AM	#27
O4L Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2015 Posts: 646	The OP seems to have disappeared on this one but those saying you aren't going to disable a car with a handgun are assuming that is what he meant in the first post. He asked about barrier penetration on vehicle and specifically mentioned the doors and glass. I think the intent is to take out the driver to end the threat, not disable the vehicle with a handgun.

June 25, 2017, 01:44 PM	#29
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	Oh, get the .40 and help prolong the life of a dying cartridge.

June 27, 2017, 08:02 AM	#35
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	In recent terrorist attack where vehicles and often large vehicles have been used to mow down pedestrians, it would be a mistake to shoot. There are innocent human victims all around the vehicle and even plastered against the mowing machine. Defensive gun shots would probably strike more innocent victims than terrorist. Rounds fired would also glance off glass and metal with uncontrollable ricochets into the masses. Attempts at being the savior or a hero could place you in very legal trouble.

June 27, 2017, 11:23 AM	#36
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	The difference between 9mm and 40S&W is that the 40 will fire heavier and larger bullets at the same velocity as the 9mm. It is very simply a ballistically superior cartridge. The 40 is a better cartridge for self defense or for out in the woods. Any time you throw heavier bullets at higher velocities you are going to have more recoil but the 40 has less recoil than a lot of other guns and unless you are using it in a compact pistol it is easily controllable.

June 27, 2017, 11:44 AM	#37
SocialAnarchist Junior member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 508	How about this viewpoint. If you have to be convinced by others to buy a .40 then what's the point? I buy what I want, not what someone convinces me to buy. If you want a .40, for whatever reason you can justify, then go buy one. If you don't want one bad enough to justify buying it on your own then stay with you 9mm.

June 27, 2017, 05:55 PM	#40
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Not saying one would intentionally shoot through people. There was testimony the other day in a police shooting about the time to make the decision to shoot to the time for a round to strike. I do not recall the exact time, but it seemed the officer took over a second. The expert witness seemed to consider this as plausible. This is not bullet travel time but rather human reaction time to a threat. In this type of situation a lot can change in a fraction of a second. This was my intended point.

June 28, 2017, 06:38 PM	#41
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Heck NO!!! I sold my 40 for a reason... Several actually...

July 2, 2017, 12:40 AM	#46
rifleman0311 Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 52	Thanks everyone for the replies!! Of course I never intended to stop a vehicle with a pistol. 3 tours between Iraq and Afghanistan have proven to me that when rounds strike things they tend to travel in the path of least resistance. I also never intended to get into a caliber war but many of you brought up some very good points. I love guns; almost anything that goes bang. I looked into the 357 Sig and it seems to be what I'm looking for. I will admit I have never shot one but I've got a kkm en route to drop in the G23. Thanks for the help everyone __________________ Live by the sword, die by the sword

July 2, 2017, 08:46 AM	#47
Kvon2 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 757	Some .40 sw guns can be converted to .357 sig with literally just a barrel swap(sorry if this has already been said). Might be worth it to have both!

July 2, 2017, 11:31 AM	#48
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Read post 37 by SocialAnarchist, it sums up the OP's original questions nicely. The two pages of killing cars and caliber comparisons are indicative of how quickly these posts can move from the original topic to senseless rhetoric. Oh yeah, did anyone notice the OP disappeared very quickly? Apparently he lost interest very rapidly.

July 2, 2017, 05:54 PM	#50
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	I looked at the "car killing" merrits of each caliber as somewhat of a side topic. I think most people realized he was not going for the engine block. I gave answers for both scenarios, but I'll reiterate.. my primary concern would be deflection going thru the windshield.. bullets can behave weird going thru slanted safety glass and don't always go where you expect them to. thru the side of the car door would probably be your best bet.. I don't advocate firing into a car just cause it jumped a curb, it may not be intentional (medical emergency) and killing the driver probably won't stop the car anyway. That's assuming you can avoid hitting any bystanders you're trying to save on the busy sidewalk in the first place. I would not trade my 9mm in for a .40 with the forethought of shooting the rogue driver of a motor vehicle. I think the OP will end up with a .40 in any event and just wanted a nudge or validation to give in to their desire.. it'll happen either way it just would happen faster if we all say "YA man go get .40"