.25, .32 and .380 military ammunition

[simonrichter]

Given that all the calibers mentioned above used to be carried in military issued sidearms before the advent of 9mm as the ubiquitous military handgun caliber - were there any typical military variants like steel core or tracer rounds available to these calibers?

[b.thomas]

From what I've ever read the only thing available back then was pure lead bullets?? I don't recall seeing anything about tracer rounds until the twentieth century and then only when it comes to machine guns and such?

[jonnyc]

A near full range of loadings were produced for the 6.35, 7.65, and 9mm rounds listed above. I've only seen ball, blank, and dummy in the 6.35(.25), and the 9mm(.380) is similarly limited. The Germans, Spanish, and Czechs produced a number of special military loadings in 7.65(.32).

[Bill DeShivs]

.25, .32, and .380 were used in small quantities until well after WW2.
Jacketed bullets were the norm, and always have been for these calibers.

[RJay]

As Bill posted the only ammo ever issued ' by any military for these calibers , was Ball.

[dogtown tom]

I have around 1,000 rounds of Spanish Santa Barbara military surplus .380

The box says "Semi blindado" or "semi jacketed". It is a jacketed flat point, exposed lead bullet.

I regret not buying 10,000 rounds when it was selling at Military Gun Supply in Ft Worth for $2.50/25 back in 2006. It has zip and I would guess its loaded pretty hot.

Edited to add: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...-acp-ammo.html

[jonnyc]

That would more-likely be police surplus, not military.

[jonnyc]

"As Bill posted the only ammo ever issued ' by any military for these calibers , was Ball."

..........not to mention subsonic, dummy, blank, and sub-caliber tracer.

[Bill DeShivs]

"..........not to mention subsonic, dummy, blank, and sub-caliber tracer."
__________________

All these calibers are subsonic already.
I don't know if the military issued dummy ammunition in these calibers, but it's doubtful.
Blanks were not used in these calibers.
Sub-caliber tracer? You have to be kidding!

[RJay]

In reference to the Santa Barbra ammo, The Armory also supplied the Spanish Guardia Civil and the police with ammo. Maybe I'm looking for love in all the wrong places but I can no reference of the Spanish military ( Regular ) using the 9MM Corto cartridge , it does not seem to be in the Spanish military supply system. I have brought and used Santa Barbra 7.62 ( 32ACP ) and I know it was not used by the Spanish military.

[carguychris]

I seriously doubt you're going to find significant quantities of tracer ammo for these cartridges, as they're not widely used in submachine guns.

AFAIK the main reason tracers are used by the military in pistol calibers such as 9mm and .45 ACP is as a training aid to teach trainees how to "walk" full-auto fire onto a target.

Pistols are supposed to be aimed on a shot-by-shot basis, they're almost always used at short range, and they aren't used to provide suppressive fire or anti-aircraft fire, so there's no reason to provide tracers for aiming under battlefield conditions.

[dogtown tom]

jonnyc That would more-likely be police surplus, not military.

Possibly. But in many countries the military is the police and vice versa.

RJay In reference to the Santa Barbra ammo, The Armory also supplied the Spanish Guardia Civil and the police with ammo. Maybe I'm looking for love in all the wrong places but I can no reference of the Spanish military ( Regular ) using the 9MM Corto cartridge , it does not seem to be in the Spanish military supply system. I have brought and used Santa Barbra 7.62 ( 32ACP ) and I know it was not used by the Spanish military.

The Star Model S in .380 was used by the Spanish Air Force. Here's one from Gunbroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/636063172

[RJay]

whoops, dogtown,When I'm wrong , I'm wrong \\\ and I stand corrected, ( sad, downcast eyes ) I think I learn more bye being wrong than when I'm right. However, ( last word ) they still used ball ammo ) , I will now go and put myself in the corner until I learn to do better esearch.

[James K]

To complicate things, some calibers were commonly carried/used by military personnel but not issued or supported by the service. A good example is the .380 (9mm Kurz) in WWII German service. While .32ACP (7.65mm Browning Short) was both issued and supported, the owner of a .380 pistol was on his own. Officers frequently carried pistols in .25 ACP (6.35mm Browning) but that caliber was also not supported (though one rather imagines that a Field Marshal wanting ammo for his little Walther might just be able to get some.)

Jim

[simonrichter]

@carguychris - what you write about tracers makes sense, no doubt. Yet, there ARE 9mm AMD .45acp tracer rounds as far as I know...

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by simonrichter

@carguychris - what you write about tracers makes sense, no doubt. Yet, there ARE 9mm AMD .45acp tracer rounds as far as I know...

Yes, for submachine gun use. This is discussed in my post.

Almost all historic pistol-caliber military SMGs are either 9mm, .45 ACP, or 7.62x25. No .25 ACP subgun exists to my knowledge. (Someone will prove me wrong—just wait—but I guarantee it's a historical footnote. ) .32 and .380 subguns exist, notably the Skorpion and MAC-11, but their use is nowhere near as widespread, and surplus ammo from the countries that use them has not been commonplace on the North American commercial market.

[James K]

Tracers were commonly issued to air crews for signalling should they be shot down and survive. I can't say for sure that none were issued for SMGs ("grease guns" or Thompsons) but their use was not common in the military. (Though the FBI used to run a demonstration at Quantico where they had about a dozen M21/28 Thompsons firing traacers at dusk. Quite impressive!)

Jim

[simonrichter]

Thanks, that does make sense - again!

[DaleA]

Tracers were commonly issued to air crews for signalling

From what I've read about WWII quite true. (Wow, the things they did before GPS!)

A term used in a couple of books was 'toffee apples' (which I thought was quite, quite British, don't you know).

The term was for when you'd point your Thompson straight up and send off a burst of tracers.

A quick Google search "tracers 'toffee apples'" even pulls a couple of references. (And a disturbing recipe for Halloween fake poison apples.)