Loading the .357 180gr. HNDY XTP-HP

Doublestack · March 20, 2008, 04:04 PM

Howdy,

I just picked up some 180gr. HNDY XTP-HPs, and noticed that they have two crimp cannulers (grooves). The lower one would obviously leave more of the bullet out of the case ala "Keith" style, and the other would put a whole lot more of that bullet inside the case.

My question is basically this. Do any of you have any experience with this bullet? I will most likely be loading 12.5 grns. of 2400 which lists a velocity of 1300 fps on the Alliant web site. While the upper crimp groove will reduce the air space in the case, I do not believe that it will compress the load, so that is not in question.

If any of you have any experience with this bullet, can you tell me if there is a significant pressure difference with the bullet seated deeper. My guess is that with the bullet seated deeper, there may be a reduction in pressure resulting from less air space in the case, but an increase in pressure (and velocity) due to the greater resistance of the bullet leaving the case. It will take longer to exit the case.

It would seem that the lower groove, which leaves more of the bullet exposed, will have the exact opposite affect as mentioned above. More air space in the case (increased chamber pressure), and less resistance leaving the case, resulting in less pressure.

Also, 2400 or AA#9 which I also have on hand? I am looking to create an all around good load for hunting applications if I should ever decide to persue that endeavor. I plan on doing some chronography, and accuracy tests with the bullet seated both ways. I just figured one or more of you folks would save me some trouble.

Thanks,
DS

saudst · March 20, 2008, 04:50 PM

Doublestack.

I have tried the 180gr. XTPHP to develope a dear load for my son's Blackhawk. I thought the extra weight would give me more penetration on Whitetail. The crimp groove closest to the base of the bullet gives a OAL too long for the cylinder and is not needed with regular max. loads anyway. I don't know what gun your loading for, but it would not work in the BH.

You did'nt say what you will be hunting with this bullet either. I only ask because I have found a better performing bullet for Whitetails if that was your game.

I also tried a 300gr. XTP in my .44 SBH and the cylinder was long enough to crimp in the rear groove. The only thing I can think the rear groove on the .357 bullet would be for is maybe the Contender? I'd crimp in the front groove as long as your not compressing, and I don't think you will with any sane load of powder that is compatible. I like 2400 but lean to H110, either one will do but 2400 burns more dirty and H110 gets the same or better velocity.

Let us know how it does for you.

Doublestack · March 20, 2008, 10:43 PM

Thanks saudst,

I actually don't have a particular animal in mind. With the price of factory ammo going through the roof, I am trying to work up some hard hitting, yet accurate loads to keep on hand. If I do decide to do some hunting, it will most likely be hogs, and I would be using a .44 Magnum SRH. I have already loaded up some 310 gr. LWNFPs from Oregon Trail for that gun. I figure that bullet at 1200fps would be plenty good for whitetail as well.

The only reason that I have the 180s is that they were the only thing left on the shelf locally that were still marked at a reasonable price. Every 100ct box of JHPs are going up $10-$15 upon re-order according to the proprietor. I have already seen the price of bullets practically double. Forget about buying factory ammo. You might as well buy gold!

DS

freakshow10mm · March 20, 2008, 10:58 PM

The rear cannelure is for controlled expansion, not a crimping groove.

I've used the 180gr XTP in the 357 quite a bit, though only with Longshot. Load to the OAL the data states, use the upper cannelure as the crimp groove.

2400 and #9 are in the same burn rate class so they should be close in performance. Work the loads up with both powders and see which is more accurate.

Doublestack · March 21, 2008, 05:50 AM

Thank you freakshow10mm. Good info.

DS

SL1 · March 21, 2008, 07:42 AM

Doublestack,

I think it is important to tell you that you have the pressure-effect of deep-seating BACKWARDS.

When a bullet is seated deeper in the case, leaving less space for the powder, the pressure INCREASES -- sometimes a lot, depending on the specifics of the cartridge and load.

You mentioned "air space" in your post as if air is needed for powder combustion. No air is needed for powder to "burn" because it "burns" by rearranging the atoms in the nitrocellulous molecules to give smaller molecules (like CO2, etc. that are mainly gases) and lots of heat. The resulting high pressure gases drive the bullet. If you produce the same amount of those gases in a smaller space (using the same powder charge), the pressure is higher.

A first-cut at keeping the same pressure when changing bullet seating depth is to keep the ratio of powder to space the same. To do that, you need to measure the space left after the bullet is seated in both configurations. That is typically done by filling the case with water and weighing the case (empty and filled). I'm not going into that further in this post, but there are previous threads that discuss it at-length.

Also, you wrote about a pressure effect from deeper seating due to increased "restiction of the bullet leaving the case". There is really no or very little pressure effect from the neck gripping the case, because the gas pressure expands the neck away from the case. (The CRIMP at the case mouth does have a substantial pressure effect on LOW-PRESSURE loads, but that is there no matter how deep the bullet is seated.) The major motion-restiction effect of deep-seating the bullet comes from how far the bullet jumps before encountering the rifling in the barrel and undergong the force of engraving the lands into the bullet's surface. In rifles and pistols, the effect is to decrease the pressure as the distance to the lands is increased (by deeper seating the bullet). Revolvers are a little more complicated due to the cylinder gap and forcing cone.

So, there are two effects that work in opposite directions, with the biggest effect coming from increasing pressure by reducing powder space.

But, you seem to misunderstand the effects of deep-seating, which could lead you to some unsafe practices. So, before you depart from the OALs given in load recipies, I suggest that you read-up on and carefully study the effects some more to be sure you understand the risks of what you are doing.

SL1

Doublestack · March 21, 2008, 03:21 PM

SL1,
Thank you for taking the time to relay all that information. I also load a great many BP cartridges, and as you know, no airspace can be left between the bullet base and the powder, lest great pressures result. I am aware of the difference between BP and smokeless powder, and that there is a great deal of airspace in many smokeless loads, and that is an OK thing. I led myself to extrapolate that the principle of compressed air in a case remained the same whether it was BP or smokeless with regard to the pressure curve.

I do not load above listed data, and therefore have never blown up a gun (thankfully). I have loaded many 10s of thousands of rounds, and I do experiment with different types of powders and different types and weight bullets. With jacketed bullets or cast lead bullets where there is a crimp groove available, I seat to crimp at that location. This 180 gr. HDY XTP-HP is the first jacketed bullet that I have encountered which repeats an exact duplicate of the crimp cannuler 1/4" below (toward the base) of the first one. If anything, I would be reducing pressure (according to your post) by using the most rearward groove, which would increase the airspace in the case.

I will be using the forward groove, and making sure that I do not compress the load. The max loading in the Lyman 48th edition for 2400 powder with this bullet is 12.6 grs. for a velocity of 949 fps and a pressure of 40,500. that seems like low velocity, and high pressure to me. Other powders such as LiL'Gun at 15.0 grs. lists a velocity of 1422 fps. with much less pressure
(34,500). I have tite-group , International clays, HP-38 / W-231, AA#9, 2400, and a few others on hand. I will be doing a bit more research, development and testing. The more load data that I see, the more I am thinking that 2400 is not right for this bullet.

DS

GP100man · March 22, 2008, 09:35 AM

by far the powder for this combo is hodgdons LILgun , look at its profiles on the site, its what it was made to do!!!
LILgun will only work good in pistol loadings when in the upper range& there it shines with the 180 xtp !!
gy 6" gps love it !!!
they are a little pricey when compared to my home cast though!!

in 44mag its hard to get it lit consistently . in my exp .

GP100man##

WESHOOT2 · March 22, 2008, 11:15 AM

A few thoughts (since I started with the 357 in '76):

2400 under a 180g might be perfect. Same with AA9; both can be excellent performers in the 357 Magnum.
My Accurate #1 lists 11.7g under the 180g XTP @ 35K for 1140fps from a 6" 686.

(I use and recommend the conventional 180g JHP from Remington as the 'ideal' 180g JHP).

As for L'IL GUN, certain correspondences suggest that it might not be ideal in the .357" bore, although things seem better as bore-size increases.
It most certainly does not deliver as tested by Hodgdon. They show 10" (!) test barrel data.

Me? I use certain Vihtavuori Oy choices or H110 or AA9 or W296 or something under my heavy-bullet 357; I launch them from two 4" GP100s and one 7.5" Redhawk.
But one load (3N37, 1177fps), developed in the pair of GPs, blew its primers when fired in the Redhawk.

amamnn · March 22, 2008, 07:10 PM

Actually, if you take the time to read Hornady's literature, you'll find that the XTP (extreme terminal performance) bullet's alleged controlled expansion is a feature of the nose design of the bullet, just like anyone else's design. The exrta cannelure is for use in extended length cartridges. Hornady does not mention this anywhere that I can find in my press releases or manuals, but one member of this forum did ask Hornady customer service about it previously.

Here is his post:

-----The second cannulure, according to HornadyCS (not written anywhere I can find) is for stretched "supermag" cartridges, in my case the 445 SuperMag. The longer loading is allowed by the longer cylinder of the supersized caliber. I'm guessing that the second one on your 357 is for the 357 Maximum.
The benefits are to increase your case capacity and also to reduce the jump to barrel. I'm not sure how much it helps accuracy in a revolver, where there is a big jump anyway, like the good results we get shooting 38 in the 357s for example.
In my case, I'm shooting these in a rifle with a very long throat, and so want to reduce the jump to near zero if possible. I've also now tried seating bullets way long and not crimping them (single shot). So far there has been no accuracy benefit to this, probably because there's not enough bullet in the case for a hard pull on ignition.
Of course you'll get more velocity with the larger case capacity, but that requries loading with data for the extended caliber. In your case, someone suggested loading a dummy and seeing if you have room in the cylinder. Probably not, I'm guessing. Remember youre changing the internal geometry by lowering?? pressures. ??"? is because some manufactures like for Win 296, say that you can get high pressures by too little powder. I'd recommend sticking to the recommended overall cartridge length, unless you keep in mind that you're wildcatting if you change things without data.------

Looking in the Hornady load data manual #7 I find the 180 gr. xtp bullet in question to be listed as good for use in the .357 magnum loads for rifle and pistol with a maximum COAL of 1.590" and also for use in the .357 remington maximum at a COAL of 1.890". I suspect that if you measure the difference between the two cannelures, all will become clear. There is also a .44 and a .45 "double cannelured" bullet listed in the Hornady product line.

joneb · March 22, 2008, 09:40 PM

I've had good luck with Hornady .357 XTP's in 180 and 158gr. I run the 180's through a Colt Trooper 4" 12.2gr of AA#9 with standard primers, or a Ruger Security Six 2.75" with 12.5gr of #9 again with standard primers.

GP100man · March 23, 2008, 08:11 AM

may be i should have said LILgun worked good for the 180s in my revolvers& it grouped the best but not the easiest powder to work with .

GP100man##

Doublestack · March 23, 2008, 09:45 PM

Great info folks. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Since I have both 2400 and AA#9 on hand, I will make up some test loads and chono them as well as test for accuracy. If anyone is interested, I will post results.

DS

joneb · March 23, 2008, 11:25 PM

I would very much like to hear of your results, I did not notice a mention of the firearm or barrel length you will be using these loads in ?

Newreloader86 · April 1, 2008, 03:07 PM

I would definitely be interested in seeing the results too-it seems you were wondering about the same thing I've been so curious about lately. I shoot a 6inch barreled S&W 686 and am just starting reloading (hence the user name). Looking to get a little more than the 1100fps or so commonly listed in most manuals to obtain a hog and deer hunting load with a little more punch. Ill probably buy a 41 or 44 mag some time in the future, but i enjoy carrying a light gun when im working on the ranch thats capable of taking big hogs. Think you mentioned the possibility of hunting hogs with it and thought id mention that with partitions (which im hoping that xtps will perform similarly to) my .357 has taken two hogs over 200 lbs with one body shot apiece. One weighed 330 pounds and was killed with a point blank shoulder shot that lodged inside the body cavity and the other was a 210 pound sow that was hit broadside at 40 yards-this time the partition performed perfectly and if found it fully intact and dangling halfway through the skin on the off-side. Killed other pigs with other bullets in the gun, but these go to show that the caliber does have its merits. I enjoyed your post as it really hits home and would love to hear about the results when you try this out.

DWFan · April 25, 2008, 12:25 AM

The Hornady 180gr XTP-HP has two crimp grooves because the two primary revolvers during it's development were the Ruger Maximum Super Blackhawk and the Dan Wesson SuperMag. The distance between the upper and lower groove is the difference between the lengths of the cylinders for these revolvers. As far as I know, the only .357 Magnum revolver currently in production that has a long enough cylinder to use this bullet seated to the lower crimp groove in a Magnum case is the Taurus M608.

mattamuskeet · April 27, 2008, 06:09 PM

I loaded up some 180gr xtp's today. R-P nickel cases, cci primers, 12.6 grains of 2400, crimped in the top groove...from a Marlin 1894, they averaged 1500 fps. From a S&W 386, they averaged 1010 fps. They shot good, but my hand was tingling after shooting the S&W...

Prince55 · April 28, 2008, 02:07 PM

Hey Weshoot2,

What do you like most about the Remington 180gr bullet in .357
over the Hornady xtp ?
I've never tried the Remington, but have the Hornady.
Sounds interesting.

Thanks

Newreloader86 · April 28, 2008, 07:43 PM

I've been having good luck with my long-loaded 180 grain xtps (using 15.4 grains of Lil Gun powder) since i first tried them the other day. Haven't had a chance to personally chronograph them yet, but my brother did in his 6.5in barreled blackhawk (which they also work well in) and he got a velocity reading of 1330 fps-only shot one of these bullets due to a severe shortage in ammo, need to reload some more. I know one shot isn't a very reliable indicator, but even if the speed varies considerably, im impressed! This is faster than factory 158's and it gives devastating expansion with the bullet, but recoil isn't noticeably any worse than my 158's with 16.7 grains of H110. It seems to produce the most energy out of all my loads, aside from maybe the 187 grain cast performance, which he said averaged 1315fps out of his gun with 14 grains of lil gun. Further personal testing will be necessary to be sure of just how good this load is, but at least for right now i think im really on to something.

WESHOOT2 · April 30, 2008, 07:00 AM

I enjoy the significant savings cost-wise.

I consider the XTP to be a suberb choice at lesser weights in the 357 Magnum.
At the 180g range I suggest the R-P bullet expands sooner after impact, with still-sufficient weight remaining for appropriate penetration.
The XTP begins its expansion as early after impact but more slowly expands, offering the potential for deeper penetration.

Moot for deer, which I think is as 'big' as the 357 Magnum is good for.

I think the R-P 180g is a perfect deer bullet when impact velocity is held above 900fps.
I think the 180g XTP is too heavily constructed to be perfect, and there's that cost thing....

This is for the 357; my thoughts change as bore size increases.....(to the Swift A-Frames....).

March 20, 2008, 04:50 PM	#2
saudst Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2008 Location: Central Wisconsin Posts: 184	Doublestack. I have tried the 180gr. XTPHP to develope a dear load for my son's Blackhawk. I thought the extra weight would give me more penetration on Whitetail. The crimp groove closest to the base of the bullet gives a OAL too long for the cylinder and is not needed with regular max. loads anyway. I don't know what gun your loading for, but it would not work in the BH. You did'nt say what you will be hunting with this bullet either. I only ask because I have found a better performing bullet for Whitetails if that was your game. I also tried a 300gr. XTP in my .44 SBH and the cylinder was long enough to crimp in the rear groove. The only thing I can think the rear groove on the .357 bullet would be for is maybe the Contender? I'd crimp in the front groove as long as your not compressing, and I don't think you will with any sane load of powder that is compatible. I like 2400 but lean to H110, either one will do but 2400 burns more dirty and H110 gets the same or better velocity. Let us know how it does for you. __________________ Tim. "Fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living".

March 20, 2008, 10:43 PM	#3
Doublestack Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 295	Thanks saudst, I actually don't have a particular animal in mind. With the price of factory ammo going through the roof, I am trying to work up some hard hitting, yet accurate loads to keep on hand. If I do decide to do some hunting, it will most likely be hogs, and I would be using a .44 Magnum SRH. I have already loaded up some 310 gr. LWNFPs from Oregon Trail for that gun. I figure that bullet at 1200fps would be plenty good for whitetail as well. The only reason that I have the 180s is that they were the only thing left on the shelf locally that were still marked at a reasonable price. Every 100ct box of JHPs are going up $10-$15 upon re-order according to the proprietor. I have already seen the price of bullets practically double. Forget about buying factory ammo. You might as well buy gold! DS __________________ The 2nd Amendment is the original Homeland Security.

March 21, 2008, 05:50 AM	#5
Doublestack Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 295	Thank you freakshow10mm. Good info. DS __________________ The 2nd Amendment is the original Homeland Security.

March 21, 2008, 07:42 AM	#6
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Misunderstanding pressure effects of deep-seating Doublestack, I think it is important to tell you that you have the pressure-effect of deep-seating BACKWARDS. When a bullet is seated deeper in the case, leaving less space for the powder, the pressure INCREASES -- sometimes a lot, depending on the specifics of the cartridge and load. You mentioned "air space" in your post as if air is needed for powder combustion. No air is needed for powder to "burn" because it "burns" by rearranging the atoms in the nitrocellulous molecules to give smaller molecules (like CO2, etc. that are mainly gases) and lots of heat. The resulting high pressure gases drive the bullet. If you produce the same amount of those gases in a smaller space (using the same powder charge), the pressure is higher. A first-cut at keeping the same pressure when changing bullet seating depth is to keep the ratio of powder to space the same. To do that, you need to measure the space left after the bullet is seated in both configurations. That is typically done by filling the case with water and weighing the case (empty and filled). I'm not going into that further in this post, but there are previous threads that discuss it at-length. Also, you wrote about a pressure effect from deeper seating due to increased "restiction of the bullet leaving the case". There is really no or very little pressure effect from the neck gripping the case, because the gas pressure expands the neck away from the case. (The CRIMP at the case mouth does have a substantial pressure effect on LOW-PRESSURE loads, but that is there no matter how deep the bullet is seated.) The major motion-restiction effect of deep-seating the bullet comes from how far the bullet jumps before encountering the rifling in the barrel and undergong the force of engraving the lands into the bullet's surface. In rifles and pistols, the effect is to decrease the pressure as the distance to the lands is increased (by deeper seating the bullet). Revolvers are a little more complicated due to the cylinder gap and forcing cone. So, there are two effects that work in opposite directions, with the biggest effect coming from increasing pressure by reducing powder space. But, you seem to misunderstand the effects of deep-seating, which could lead you to some unsafe practices. So, before you depart from the OALs given in load recipies, I suggest that you read-up on and carefully study the effects some more to be sure you understand the risks of what you are doing. SL1

March 22, 2008, 09:35 AM	#8
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	powder &180grs. by far the powder for this combo is hodgdons LILgun , look at its profiles on the site, its what it was made to do!!! LILgun will only work good in pistol loadings when in the upper range& there it shines with the 180 xtp !! gy 6" gps love it !!! they are a little pricey when compared to my home cast though!! in 44mag its hard to get it lit consistently . in my exp . GP100man##

March 20, 2008, 04:04 PM	#1
Doublestack Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 295	Loading the .357 180gr. HNDY XTP-HP Howdy, I just picked up some 180gr. HNDY XTP-HPs, and noticed that they have two crimp cannulers (grooves). The lower one would obviously leave more of the bullet out of the case ala "Keith" style, and the other would put a whole lot more of that bullet inside the case. My question is basically this. Do any of you have any experience with this bullet? I will most likely be loading 12.5 grns. of 2400 which lists a velocity of 1300 fps on the Alliant web site. While the upper crimp groove will reduce the air space in the case, I do not believe that it will compress the load, so that is not in question. If any of you have any experience with this bullet, can you tell me if there is a significant pressure difference with the bullet seated deeper. My guess is that with the bullet seated deeper, there may be a reduction in pressure resulting from less air space in the case, but an increase in pressure (and velocity) due to the greater resistance of the bullet leaving the case. It will take longer to exit the case. It would seem that the lower groove, which leaves more of the bullet exposed, will have the exact opposite affect as mentioned above. More air space in the case (increased chamber pressure), and less resistance leaving the case, resulting in less pressure. Also, 2400 or AA#9 which I also have on hand? I am looking to create an all around good load for hunting applications if I should ever decide to persue that endeavor. I plan on doing some chronography, and accuracy tests with the bullet seated both ways. I just figured one or more of you folks would save me some trouble. Thanks, DS __________________ The 2nd Amendment is the original Homeland Security.

March 20, 2008, 10:58 PM	#4
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	The rear cannelure is for controlled expansion, not a crimping groove. I've used the 180gr XTP in the 357 quite a bit, though only with Longshot. Load to the OAL the data states, use the upper cannelure as the crimp groove. 2400 and #9 are in the same burn rate class so they should be close in performance. Work the loads up with both powders and see which is more accurate.

March 21, 2008, 03:21 PM	#7
Doublestack Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 295	SL1, Thank you for taking the time to relay all that information. I also load a great many BP cartridges, and as you know, no airspace can be left between the bullet base and the powder, lest great pressures result. I am aware of the difference between BP and smokeless powder, and that there is a great deal of airspace in many smokeless loads, and that is an OK thing. I led myself to extrapolate that the principle of compressed air in a case remained the same whether it was BP or smokeless with regard to the pressure curve. I do not load above listed data, and therefore have never blown up a gun (thankfully). I have loaded many 10s of thousands of rounds, and I do experiment with different types of powders and different types and weight bullets. With jacketed bullets or cast lead bullets where there is a crimp groove available, I seat to crimp at that location. This 180 gr. HDY XTP-HP is the first jacketed bullet that I have encountered which repeats an exact duplicate of the crimp cannuler 1/4" below (toward the base) of the first one. If anything, I would be reducing pressure (according to your post) by using the most rearward groove, which would increase the airspace in the case. I will be using the forward groove, and making sure that I do not compress the load. The max loading in the Lyman 48th edition for 2400 powder with this bullet is 12.6 grs. for a velocity of 949 fps and a pressure of 40,500. that seems like low velocity, and high pressure to me. Other powders such as LiL'Gun at 15.0 grs. lists a velocity of 1422 fps. with much less pressure (34,500). I have tite-group , International clays, HP-38 / W-231, AA#9, 2400, and a few others on hand. I will be doing a bit more research, development and testing. The more load data that I see, the more I am thinking that 2400 is not right for this bullet. DS __________________ The 2nd Amendment is the original Homeland Security.

March 22, 2008, 11:15 AM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	slow down A few thoughts (since I started with the 357 in '76): 2400 under a 180g might be perfect. Same with AA9; both can be excellent performers in the 357 Magnum. My Accurate #1 lists 11.7g under the 180g XTP @ 35K for 1140fps from a 6" 686. (I use and recommend the conventional 180g JHP from Remington as the 'ideal' 180g JHP). As for L'IL GUN, certain correspondences suggest that it might not be ideal in the .357" bore, although things seem better as bore-size increases. It most certainly does not deliver as tested by Hodgdon. They show 10" (!) test barrel data. Me? I use certain Vihtavuori Oy choices or H110 or AA9 or W296 or something under my heavy-bullet 357; I launch them from two 4" GP100s and one 7.5" Redhawk. But one load (3N37, 1177fps), developed in the pair of GPs, blew its primers when fired in the Redhawk. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 22, 2008, 07:10 PM	#10
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Actually, if you take the time to read Hornady's literature, you'll find that the XTP (extreme terminal performance) bullet's alleged controlled expansion is a feature of the nose design of the bullet, just like anyone else's design. The exrta cannelure is for use in extended length cartridges. Hornady does not mention this anywhere that I can find in my press releases or manuals, but one member of this forum did ask Hornady customer service about it previously. Here is his post: -----The second cannulure, according to HornadyCS (not written anywhere I can find) is for stretched "supermag" cartridges, in my case the 445 SuperMag. The longer loading is allowed by the longer cylinder of the supersized caliber. I'm guessing that the second one on your 357 is for the 357 Maximum. The benefits are to increase your case capacity and also to reduce the jump to barrel. I'm not sure how much it helps accuracy in a revolver, where there is a big jump anyway, like the good results we get shooting 38 in the 357s for example. In my case, I'm shooting these in a rifle with a very long throat, and so want to reduce the jump to near zero if possible. I've also now tried seating bullets way long and not crimping them (single shot). So far there has been no accuracy benefit to this, probably because there's not enough bullet in the case for a hard pull on ignition. Of course you'll get more velocity with the larger case capacity, but that requries loading with data for the extended caliber. In your case, someone suggested loading a dummy and seeing if you have room in the cylinder. Probably not, I'm guessing. Remember youre changing the internal geometry by lowering?? pressures. ??"? is because some manufactures like for Win 296, say that you can get high pressures by too little powder. I'd recommend sticking to the recommended overall cartridge length, unless you keep in mind that you're wildcatting if you change things without data.------ Looking in the Hornady load data manual #7 I find the 180 gr. xtp bullet in question to be listed as good for use in the .357 magnum loads for rifle and pistol with a maximum COAL of 1.590" and also for use in the .357 remington maximum at a COAL of 1.890". I suspect that if you measure the difference between the two cannelures, all will become clear. There is also a .44 and a .45 "double cannelured" bullet listed in the Hornady product line. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

March 22, 2008, 09:40 PM	#11
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I've had good luck with Hornady .357 XTP's in 180 and 158gr. I run the 180's through a Colt Trooper 4" 12.2gr of AA#9 with standard primers, or a Ruger Security Six 2.75" with 12.5gr of #9 again with standard primers.

March 23, 2008, 08:11 AM	#12
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	LIL gun may be i should have said LILgun worked good for the 180s in my revolvers& it grouped the best but not the easiest powder to work with . GP100man##

March 23, 2008, 09:45 PM	#13
Doublestack Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2007 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 295	Great info folks. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Since I have both 2400 and AA#9 on hand, I will make up some test loads and chono them as well as test for accuracy. If anyone is interested, I will post results. DS __________________ The 2nd Amendment is the original Homeland Security.

March 23, 2008, 11:25 PM	#14
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I would very much like to hear of your results, I did not notice a mention of the firearm or barrel length you will be using these loads in ?

April 1, 2008, 03:07 PM	#15
Newreloader86 Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2008 Posts: 10	I would definitely be interested in seeing the results too-it seems you were wondering about the same thing I've been so curious about lately. I shoot a 6inch barreled S&W 686 and am just starting reloading (hence the user name). Looking to get a little more than the 1100fps or so commonly listed in most manuals to obtain a hog and deer hunting load with a little more punch. Ill probably buy a 41 or 44 mag some time in the future, but i enjoy carrying a light gun when im working on the ranch thats capable of taking big hogs. Think you mentioned the possibility of hunting hogs with it and thought id mention that with partitions (which im hoping that xtps will perform similarly to) my .357 has taken two hogs over 200 lbs with one body shot apiece. One weighed 330 pounds and was killed with a point blank shoulder shot that lodged inside the body cavity and the other was a 210 pound sow that was hit broadside at 40 yards-this time the partition performed perfectly and if found it fully intact and dangling halfway through the skin on the off-side. Killed other pigs with other bullets in the gun, but these go to show that the caliber does have its merits. I enjoyed your post as it really hits home and would love to hear about the results when you try this out.

April 25, 2008, 12:25 AM	#16
DWFan Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 305	I'm new but... The Hornady 180gr XTP-HP has two crimp grooves because the two primary revolvers during it's development were the Ruger Maximum Super Blackhawk and the Dan Wesson SuperMag. The distance between the upper and lower groove is the difference between the lengths of the cylinders for these revolvers. As far as I know, the only .357 Magnum revolver currently in production that has a long enough cylinder to use this bullet seated to the lower crimp groove in a Magnum case is the Taurus M608.

April 27, 2008, 06:09 PM	#17
mattamuskeet Member Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 99	I loaded up some 180gr xtp's today. R-P nickel cases, cci primers, 12.6 grains of 2400, crimped in the top groove...from a Marlin 1894, they averaged 1500 fps. From a S&W 386, they averaged 1010 fps. They shot good, but my hand was tingling after shooting the S&W...

April 28, 2008, 02:07 PM	#18
Prince55 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Posts: 472	Hey Weshoot2, What do you like most about the Remington 180gr bullet in .357 over the Hornady xtp ? I've never tried the Remington, but have the Hornady. Sounds interesting. Thanks

April 28, 2008, 07:43 PM	#19
Newreloader86 Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2008 Posts: 10	I've been having good luck with my long-loaded 180 grain xtps (using 15.4 grains of Lil Gun powder) since i first tried them the other day. Haven't had a chance to personally chronograph them yet, but my brother did in his 6.5in barreled blackhawk (which they also work well in) and he got a velocity reading of 1330 fps-only shot one of these bullets due to a severe shortage in ammo, need to reload some more. I know one shot isn't a very reliable indicator, but even if the speed varies considerably, im impressed! This is faster than factory 158's and it gives devastating expansion with the bullet, but recoil isn't noticeably any worse than my 158's with 16.7 grains of H110. It seems to produce the most energy out of all my loads, aside from maybe the 187 grain cast performance, which he said averaged 1315fps out of his gun with 14 grains of lil gun. Further personal testing will be necessary to be sure of just how good this load is, but at least for right now i think im really on to something.

April 30, 2008, 07:00 AM	#20
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	bullet vs bullet vs goal I enjoy the significant savings cost-wise. I consider the XTP to be a suberb choice at lesser weights in the 357 Magnum. At the 180g range I suggest the R-P bullet expands sooner after impact, with still-sufficient weight remaining for appropriate penetration. The XTP begins its expansion as early after impact but more slowly expands, offering the potential for deeper penetration. Moot for deer, which I think is as 'big' as the 357 Magnum is good for. I think the R-P 180g is a perfect deer bullet when impact velocity is held above 900fps. I think the 180g XTP is too heavily constructed to be perfect, and there's that cost thing.... This is for the 357; my thoughts change as bore size increases.....(to the Swift A-Frames....). __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"