DAO, SA, DA/SA and carry gun(s)

DunedinDragon · May 3, 2006, 06:52 AM

I see a lot posted here along the lines of:

"What is your carry gun?"

And...

"What's the best kind of trigger?"

I own several handguns, with different types of triggers (1911, Glock, Sigs, Taurus DAO). I enjoy shooting all of those guns and expect myself to be proficient with all of them regardless of the trigger action. Although I do tend to have a prominent carry gun, I don't rule out the idea that I may carry any of them at different times due to weather, the way I need to dress, etc.

So my question is, am I the only one that thinks this way? From the way folks talk on here it seems like they only like one type of trigger and wouldn't carry anything else. My opinion is I want to be comfortable handling ALL of my handguns, and that's simply a matter of practice.

shield20 · May 3, 2006, 07:18 AM

I have little problem hitting with any type. But I do find myself getting used to 1 style - the amount of weight & travel needed to fire the piece, any staging etc. Then when switching, it takes a bit to get re-adjusted to the new pull - sometimes even firing prematurely if it has a shorter or lighter trigger.

Another issue - I carried DA/SA Berettas for years, and thought they were great. Then switched to a 1911 SA for a couple years. Next time I shot a Beretta I thought it was terrible - the DA was heavy and the SA was so loooonnng and sloppy. I could still hit, but knowing i did not have to settle for that style of action had me looking for the SA and eventually a DAO.

I think under stress I want to be shooting what I am used to - so I tend to practice almost exclusively with the 1 gun I will be carrying. Less chance of mistakes, better chance for accuracy when I will need it most.

threegun · May 3, 2006, 10:13 AM

DoubleD, You pretty much know my stance on this. The problem is two fold. The DA/SA transition while under stress and the different platforms under stress. I can also shoot anything you give me well, however the range and an actual shootout are two different stress monsters. I believe totally that intense stress will cause DA/SA transition problems no matter how much you train against it. I also believe that keeping everything exactly the same (as in platform etc.) allows your brain to concentrate on defeating the threat.

JNewell · May 3, 2006, 01:21 PM

The other DA/SA "transition" issue that doesn't get discussed as much is reholstering without decocking. On the range, seldom a problem. In training when people are being pushed hard, not uncommon but needless to say potentially dangerous. Another way to think about DAO is "trigger-cocking, self-decocking."

TheEgg · May 3, 2006, 02:08 PM

If you have never been in a life or death, high stress, super high pucker factor situation, you have no idea how stupid you can get. Your brain comes close to locking up, your vision changes, your hearing changes, etc. etc. etc. Some of us have even won the coveted "wet diaper" award afterward (some of you know what I'm talkin 'bout

)

Because I have been in a couple of high-stress, life or death situations, I know how stupid I get in such a spot. So, I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible with training ahead of time.

Once you get in this spot, the only thing that saves you is training -- training that is so ingrained that you DO NOT have to think, other than that process that tells you it is now time to deploy deadly force. You don't have time to mess around with administrative details, like "strong side or cross draw or fanny pack", or "DA/SA or SA", or "Frame mounted safety or slide mounted or none". Well, which one is it -- oops too late, you are now dead.

So, I try to work with one manual of arms and one method of carry for my CH so that using it is so ingrained that I can work it when I am scared spitless, stunned, injured, half-consious, or in any other state of diminished capacity. Because of this, I several years ago settled on guns that are "pull and shoot". No safeties, no levers, always in a ready to fire condition. There are a cool ton of guns that meet these simple requirements, so I feel no burden in limiting my selection to this group. However, you can pick any gun you like -- just make sure you know how to use it, upside down and sideways.

I don't treat my concealed handgun as a fashion accessory.

threegun · May 3, 2006, 04:21 PM

TheEgg, Well said. I have been in some hair raising situations also. During one I experienced mild tunnel vision and auditory trouble and the slowing of time and motion. God help me if I had a new platform to deal with or worst. Despite the handicaps listed above, I performed fast and fluid........according to my partner who withnessed it all. Training and K.I.S.S.

j1132s · May 3, 2006, 05:02 PM

I only carry guns w/o external safeties and DA or Glock's safe action only. I don't want to die because of forgetting to take off a safety.

However, if I have no choice and I have only 1 gun, then I'll carry it w/o regard to the above. Fortunately I have several.

Hard Ball · May 3, 2006, 05:07 PM

The Egg +3

What you say is absolutely correct, but people who have never been there will not beliive you. They cannot imagine what real life or death combat stress is like. I hope that for their sakes that they never find out, but if they do and live through, they will have a religious conversion.

ddskehan · May 3, 2006, 06:27 PM

I carry a Glock 27 for these reasons.
1. reliability
2. no real safety to forget.
3. easy to fix and maintain
4. reliability
5. reliability

I was in the us military, 2nd of the 75th. I remember this one very important thing. A manual safety kills because in the stress of combat you can forget to turn it off. Between tunnel vision and possible exsisting major injuries you can forget to. You have to consider that you could have a dead shooting arm and will only have your weak arm available.

Kermit · May 3, 2006, 08:22 PM

For me, it's not that I only have one trigger type...I really like a well tuned 1911 or BHP trigger but I have also taught myself to enjoy revolvers, DAO semi autos and a more traditional DA/SA semi auto too. I think it comes down to being able to dedicate the time & effort necessary to become proficient in the platforms shooters decide to own.

DunedinDragon · May 4, 2006, 05:32 AM

I absolutely agree with others that in a high stress (high pucker factor) situation you don't want to be slowed down by a lack of familiarity with your gun. I personally don't see that as translating into only carrying one type of gun, as long as you've spent adequate time practicing with that gun before carrying it.

I liken it to my experience in the military. I was #2 on a combat aircrew. Our particular type of mission was given to commonly being placed under attack, so there were more than enough "pucker factor" missions to be able to test yourself as far as your reaction in a crisis. After having been in the field for about 4 years, the AF started introducing a new platform and this very topic was a big controversy among the flight crews as well as the higher-ups in that for a period of 2 or 3 years we would be flying both platforms at different times and that the crewmembers would get confused and not be able to react accordingly under pressure to the new systems. It turned out to be a non-issue. We got plenty of simulator training as well as training missions with the new platform and transitioning between the two was never a factor for anyone. And believe me we were well tested with "pucker" missions on both.

The way I figure it, the difference in those systems was FAR more complex that the difference between a SA, DAO, or DA/SA trigger pull.

threegun · May 4, 2006, 06:19 AM

Quote:

I think it comes down to being able to dedicate the time & effort necessary to become proficient in the platforms shooters decide to own.

This is okay if you concentrate on a particular platform prior to carrying it. If you simply become proficient in 4 different platforms you own and today you choose to carry Betty and tomorrow you choose Jean etc you will have trouble when the poop hits the fan IMO.

Quote:

The way I figure it, the difference in those systems was FAR more complex that the difference between a SA, DAO, or DA/SA trigger pull.

I believe that the DA/SA problem is on a subconscious level problem. When high stress puts you on auto pilot (subconscious actions) it is my belief that the brain sends the same signal to the finger that was required on the previous shot in essence causing your finger to jerk the second round that is in single action position. The brain shuts down so many things to focus on the threat and this is but a byproduct IMO.

BTW DoubleD, There is a difference between pucker factor that is expected and startle pucker factor. An incoming anti aircraft missile while on a combat mission is bad on the stomach. A Rottweiler running full blast from under a porch to eat the plumber is bad on the undies of said plumber. The expected and the not expected. The instant vs. the delayed. In no way am I undercutting your service to our country or downplaying the stress levels that came along with it. Thanks for your service BTW. I just feel that the instant/unexpected pucker factor pressure is harder to perform under.

AMT8951 · May 4, 2006, 06:51 AM

I carry a Glock 21 (DAO)on duty. However from time to time I carry a Sig 2340 (SA/DA) , a 1911 (SA- Auto), or a S&W M65 off duty. I think the Glock (DAO) would be the easiest to handle in a "High Stress" situation. However, I don't seem to have much difficultty swithing from one type of action to another. It's kinda like switching from a car with a manual transmission to one with an automatic tranmission.

shield20 · May 4, 2006, 07:22 AM

I think some are missing the point Egg re-iterated...sounds like we are all/can be proficient in any of these trigger styles. Hand any of us an accurate gun at the range and we will probably hit what we aim at, and function just fine.

BUT shoot 1000 rounds out of a DAO with a 10 or 12# pull over a few weeks doing CCW drills, and then do a quick draw and shoot with a 1911 (esp. in a higher stress situation) and that 1st pull will NOT be what you wanted - I would venture it may even go off before you want it to. (NOT good!) I saw the same thing when going from a loooonng pull LEM HK to a very short pull P99QA.

I also saw as I transitioned from a 1911 to a P99 that the different mag release was an issue briefly - because the P99 release had the same motion as the slide release, doing combat reloads the 1st time got me messed up - where I dropped the slide instead of the mag. It only happened that once, and then I became proficient at it.

After 20 yrs of shooting & carrying all types of handguns on & off duty, I don't think I am stupid or slow or spasdic or anything. (atleast no more then the next guy!

) But I DO think your body gets conditioned very quickly to repetive forces and actions (I know mine does). Take away the time to think, to reason, and add even a little stress - try being FAST under pressure - and those reflexes will take over. Better to be carrying 1 platform that you took the time to get conditioned to, the one you know inside and out as Egg described.

threegun · May 4, 2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

However, I don't seem to have much difficulty swithing from one type of action to another. It's kinda like switching from a car with a manual transmission to one with an automatic transmission.

There is no difficulty until high stress is added. When your subconscious chooses to react with the wrong manual of arms.

Quote:

I would venture it may even go off before you want it to. (NOT good!)

This happened to a friend and coworker of mine. After a decade of shooting and carrying a revolver, he began training and carrying a 1911. During a robbery he drew and fired extremely low..................still ended the fight (leg wound). Later we discussed the event and he believed that he began to pull the trigger as if it was his revolver causing the 1911 with its short crisp trigger to fire prematurely. At the range this didn't happen. When an armed robber swung around with a gun in hand.....guess what............his brain reverted to the most familiar weapons platform......his trusty revolver.

Handy · May 4, 2006, 08:55 AM

A "solution" to this problem is to train yourself so that trigger control is independant of aim.

In the above scenerio it sounds like the guy was using the pulling of the revolver trigger to force the sights into alignment. When he didn't have a firm trigger to work against the 1911 went off before he had brought it up far enough.

But imagine if your trigger finger was not a component part of controlling the gun, and was ONLY used to pull the trigger. How could the trigger pull affect the point of aim in that case?

I shoot a variety of guns with all different trigger styles. Some group better than others, but all shots go about where intended. I have seperated controlling the gun and controlling the trigger, so that the gun is pointed at the target at the time I decide to pull the trigger, and remains aligned until the gun fires.

If you don't make an effort to seperate your index finger from the rest of your hand you will always be a slave to the timing and feel of the trigger on your prefered gun. But if your thumb and other three fingers are alone responsible for holding the gun steady, there is little the index finger can do to sabotage your aim.

Call me crazy, but that's the way I see it.

BTW, forgetting to decock a DA/SA is identical to forgetting to safe an SA. If you can't handle one, you aren't going to be able to rely on the other. A P7 decocks itself. A Glock isn't much different than forgetting to decock a Sig or safety a BHP.

Caplock · May 4, 2006, 09:23 AM

You nailed it sir. Very well put. I would like to know what your carry gun is, if you don't mind.

threegun · May 4, 2006, 09:35 AM

Handy, Learning to pull the trigger without moving the gun is what every gun enthusiast strives for. The person who best learns to control movement prior to hammer falling is going to be the best shot. What that has to do with your subconscious applying a harder force than needed to the trigger I don't know. Most people I know, in fact all people that I know (and talked to) begin to pull the trigger prior to the gun climbing into position..(when firing from the draw).......I call it prepping the trigger other call it taking up slack etc. In fact I was preping the trigger as my G-20 climbed the leg of a man who pointed a gun (turned out to be a bb gun) at a coworker. When my gun finished its climb to the vitals of this guy, the trigger would be (should be) dropping the hammer/striker. Thankfully I recognised the gun as a bb gun and halted the firing process.

Quote:

In the above scenerio it sounds like the guy was using the pulling of the revolver trigger to force the sights into alignment. When he didn't have a firm trigger to work against the 1911 went off before he had brought it up far enough.

He trained to draw his revolver and as it climbed toward the target he applies pressure to the trigger.......just as most others do. The difference was a long DA revolver trigger compared to the short light 1911 trigger. The very reason IMO that one should settle for one weapon system for self defense.

BTW this very person has settled in to one battle gun only.

Handy · May 4, 2006, 11:22 AM

Or, he could let go of this practice and follow the safety rules that say to keep your finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target.

Your story is especially damning because you had your Glock trigger engaged and pointing at part of a man before you ID'd your target.

Just because people do whatever, like stage the trigger when they don't know where the muzzle is pointing, doesn't make it a good idea. Not only is my method more adaptable, it is safer.

Don't shoot your toe off.

Jkwas · May 4, 2006, 01:45 PM

DAO. I'm too spastic to ccw with anything else

Hard Ball · May 4, 2006, 02:22 PM

"follow the safety rules that say to keep your finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target. "

I can remenber two ocassions when if I had followed that rule I would be dead.

It reminds me of a sign on a cross off a mock grave at an advanced military pistol range which said

"Fools may come,
and fools may go.
This one went,
he shot too slow!"

TheEgg · May 4, 2006, 02:25 PM

Caplock -- check your PM.

threegun · May 4, 2006, 02:27 PM

Handy,

Quote:

Your story is especially damning because you had your Glock trigger engaged and pointing at part of a man before you ID'd your target.

Make no mistake if I have decided that deadly force is warranted the last thing on my mind is keeping trigger discipline. How am I supposed to discharge my weapon? My gun at no time pointed at anything I didn't want to destroy. If it went off early as your post expresses concern, oh well, the bad guy takes one on the hip. This guy reached under his jacket and pulled a gun and pointed it at my coworker. His intent was two fold he wanted to pawn the bb gun however he also wanted to scare us (from his own mouth). He did a great job as I believed his intent was to rob our shop as did my coworker. When I saw the gun and his body language my mission and reason for drawing my handgun was to get lead on him asap to save my coworker. BTW so convincing was this guy that my coworker froze in fear.

Your system of raise then start pulling is to slow. My partner would have taken fire using your system. I have never had an early discharge in practice, competition, or the above incident.

Police later asked me why I didn't shoot. I recognized the gun as a bb gun. My brain processed the information just in time to stop "PREPPING" the trigger.

casingpoint · May 4, 2006, 03:10 PM

Don't matter who made it. If it ain't got a DAK trigger, it's crap.

Handy · May 4, 2006, 03:15 PM

Hardball and Threegun,

I'm not suggesting keeping your finger well away from the trigger - I guess I wasn't being very clear. I'm saying that prestaging or starting to pull the trigger early is a habit that will get you in trouble under stress. If you think getting off your first shot is slow, you should measure how long a first hit takes if you put one in the dirt, first.

When I'm firing a DA or SA gun the trigger pull is performed - RAPIDLY - once the gun is pointed at something. Even a 12 pound trigger is stroked quickly with one firm movement. The same pull works on a 4 pound SA trigger just as well - it might be overkill, but the trigger is smacked firmly either way.

Of interest, a book written by a retired Delta Force guy reflects this - despite using 1911s, they slap the trigger quite hard and suddenly, relying on firm control of the pistol to insure hits rather than a dainty trigger finger.

DA trigger pulls are firm, but they are not so firm as to require a pull that takes a measurably longer time than a SA pull. You can index your finger on the trigger before you do it, but you start and complete the trigger pull in one brisk movement instead of the push you're describing.

May 3, 2006, 06:52 AM	#1
DunedinDragon Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2006 Posts: 198	DAO, SA, DA/SA and carry gun(s) I see a lot posted here along the lines of: "What is your carry gun?" And... "What's the best kind of trigger?" I own several handguns, with different types of triggers (1911, Glock, Sigs, Taurus DAO). I enjoy shooting all of those guns and expect myself to be proficient with all of them regardless of the trigger action. Although I do tend to have a prominent carry gun, I don't rule out the idea that I may carry any of them at different times due to weather, the way I need to dress, etc. So my question is, am I the only one that thinks this way? From the way folks talk on here it seems like they only like one type of trigger and wouldn't carry anything else. My opinion is I want to be comfortable handling ALL of my handguns, and that's simply a matter of practice.

May 3, 2006, 02:08 PM	#5
TheEgg Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: TEXAS, ouside of Dallas. Posts: 374	If you have never been in a life or death, high stress, super high pucker factor situation, you have no idea how stupid you can get. Your brain comes close to locking up, your vision changes, your hearing changes, etc. etc. etc. Some of us have even won the coveted "wet diaper" award afterward (some of you know what I'm talkin 'bout ) Because I have been in a couple of high-stress, life or death situations, I know how stupid I get in such a spot. So, I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible with training ahead of time. Once you get in this spot, the only thing that saves you is training -- training that is so ingrained that you DO NOT have to think, other than that process that tells you it is now time to deploy deadly force. You don't have time to mess around with administrative details, like "strong side or cross draw or fanny pack", or "DA/SA or SA", or "Frame mounted safety or slide mounted or none". Well, which one is it -- oops too late, you are now dead. So, I try to work with one manual of arms and one method of carry for my CH so that using it is so ingrained that I can work it when I am scared spitless, stunned, injured, half-consious, or in any other state of diminished capacity. Because of this, I several years ago settled on guns that are "pull and shoot". No safeties, no levers, always in a ready to fire condition. There are a cool ton of guns that meet these simple requirements, so I feel no burden in limiting my selection to this group. However, you can pick any gun you like -- just make sure you know how to use it, upside down and sideways. I don't treat my concealed handgun as a fashion accessory. __________________ NRA Lifer. Texas State Rifle Assn. If it goes "BOOM", I like it!

May 3, 2006, 05:07 PM	#8
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	The Egg +3 What you say is absolutely correct, but people who have never been there will not beliive you. They cannot imagine what real life or death combat stress is like. I hope that for their sakes that they never find out, but if they do and live through, they will have a religious conversion. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

May 4, 2006, 06:51 AM	#13
AMT8951 Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: Central NY Posts: 492	I carry a Glock 21 (DAO)on duty. However from time to time I carry a Sig 2340 (SA/DA) , a 1911 (SA- Auto), or a S&W M65 off duty. I think the Glock (DAO) would be the easiest to handle in a "High Stress" situation. However, I don't seem to have much difficultty swithing from one type of action to another. It's kinda like switching from a car with a manual transmission to one with an automatic tranmission. __________________ .40 cal Sig 2340 Kahr E9 S&W M65-5 RIA Midsize .45acp Glock 21 Olympic Arms M4 Win M70 .375 H&H FN PBR .308 Win M69A .22 Mini-14 Ithica M37 Deerslayer 12ga Remington 721 30/06

May 4, 2006, 09:23 AM	#17
Caplock Member Join Date: April 20, 2006 Posts: 20	Bravo to "TheEgg" You nailed it sir. Very well put. I would like to know what your carry gun is, if you don't mind.

May 3, 2006, 07:18 AM	#2
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	I have little problem hitting with any type. But I do find myself getting used to 1 style - the amount of weight & travel needed to fire the piece, any staging etc. Then when switching, it takes a bit to get re-adjusted to the new pull - sometimes even firing prematurely if it has a shorter or lighter trigger. Another issue - I carried DA/SA Berettas for years, and thought they were great. Then switched to a 1911 SA for a couple years. Next time I shot a Beretta I thought it was terrible - the DA was heavy and the SA was so loooonnng and sloppy. I could still hit, but knowing i did not have to settle for that style of action had me looking for the SA and eventually a DAO. I think under stress I want to be shooting what I am used to - so I tend to practice almost exclusively with the 1 gun I will be carrying. Less chance of mistakes, better chance for accuracy when I will need it most.

May 3, 2006, 10:13 AM	#3
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	DoubleD, You pretty much know my stance on this. The problem is two fold. The DA/SA transition while under stress and the different platforms under stress. I can also shoot anything you give me well, however the range and an actual shootout are two different stress monsters. I believe totally that intense stress will cause DA/SA transition problems no matter how much you train against it. I also believe that keeping everything exactly the same (as in platform etc.) allows your brain to concentrate on defeating the threat.

May 3, 2006, 01:21 PM	#4
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	The other DA/SA "transition" issue that doesn't get discussed as much is reholstering without decocking. On the range, seldom a problem. In training when people are being pushed hard, not uncommon but needless to say potentially dangerous. Another way to think about DAO is "trigger-cocking, self-decocking."

May 3, 2006, 04:21 PM	#6
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	TheEgg, Well said. I have been in some hair raising situations also. During one I experienced mild tunnel vision and auditory trouble and the slowing of time and motion. God help me if I had a new platform to deal with or worst. Despite the handicaps listed above, I performed fast and fluid........according to my partner who withnessed it all. Training and K.I.S.S.

May 3, 2006, 05:02 PM	#7
j1132s Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Posts: 223	I only carry guns w/o external safeties and DA or Glock's safe action only. I don't want to die because of forgetting to take off a safety. However, if I have no choice and I have only 1 gun, then I'll carry it w/o regard to the above. Fortunately I have several.

May 3, 2006, 06:27 PM	#9
ddskehan Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2006 Location: grafton, ma Posts: 225	I carry a Glock 27 for these reasons. 1. reliability 2. no real safety to forget. 3. easy to fix and maintain 4. reliability 5. reliability I was in the us military, 2nd of the 75th. I remember this one very important thing. A manual safety kills because in the stress of combat you can forget to turn it off. Between tunnel vision and possible exsisting major injuries you can forget to. You have to consider that you could have a dead shooting arm and will only have your weak arm available.

May 3, 2006, 08:22 PM	#10
Kermit Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,020	For me, it's not that I only have one trigger type...I really like a well tuned 1911 or BHP trigger but I have also taught myself to enjoy revolvers, DAO semi autos and a more traditional DA/SA semi auto too. I think it comes down to being able to dedicate the time & effort necessary to become proficient in the platforms shooters decide to own.

May 4, 2006, 05:32 AM	#11
DunedinDragon Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2006 Posts: 198	I absolutely agree with others that in a high stress (high pucker factor) situation you don't want to be slowed down by a lack of familiarity with your gun. I personally don't see that as translating into only carrying one type of gun, as long as you've spent adequate time practicing with that gun before carrying it. I liken it to my experience in the military. I was #2 on a combat aircrew. Our particular type of mission was given to commonly being placed under attack, so there were more than enough "pucker factor" missions to be able to test yourself as far as your reaction in a crisis. After having been in the field for about 4 years, the AF started introducing a new platform and this very topic was a big controversy among the flight crews as well as the higher-ups in that for a period of 2 or 3 years we would be flying both platforms at different times and that the crewmembers would get confused and not be able to react accordingly under pressure to the new systems. It turned out to be a non-issue. We got plenty of simulator training as well as training missions with the new platform and transitioning between the two was never a factor for anyone. And believe me we were well tested with "pucker" missions on both. The way I figure it, the difference in those systems was FAR more complex that the difference between a SA, DAO, or DA/SA trigger pull.

May 4, 2006, 07:22 AM	#14
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	I think some are missing the point Egg re-iterated...sounds like we are all/can be proficient in any of these trigger styles. Hand any of us an accurate gun at the range and we will probably hit what we aim at, and function just fine. BUT shoot 1000 rounds out of a DAO with a 10 or 12# pull over a few weeks doing CCW drills, and then do a quick draw and shoot with a 1911 (esp. in a higher stress situation) and that 1st pull will NOT be what you wanted - I would venture it may even go off before you want it to. (NOT good!) I saw the same thing when going from a loooonng pull LEM HK to a very short pull P99QA. I also saw as I transitioned from a 1911 to a P99 that the different mag release was an issue briefly - because the P99 release had the same motion as the slide release, doing combat reloads the 1st time got me messed up - where I dropped the slide instead of the mag. It only happened that once, and then I became proficient at it. After 20 yrs of shooting & carrying all types of handguns on & off duty, I don't think I am stupid or slow or spasdic or anything. (atleast no more then the next guy! ) But I DO think your body gets conditioned very quickly to repetive forces and actions (I know mine does). Take away the time to think, to reason, and add even a little stress - try being FAST under pressure - and those reflexes will take over. Better to be carrying 1 platform that you took the time to get conditioned to, the one you know inside and out as Egg described.

May 4, 2006, 08:55 AM	#16
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	A "solution" to this problem is to train yourself so that trigger control is independant of aim. In the above scenerio it sounds like the guy was using the pulling of the revolver trigger to force the sights into alignment. When he didn't have a firm trigger to work against the 1911 went off before he had brought it up far enough. But imagine if your trigger finger was not a component part of controlling the gun, and was ONLY used to pull the trigger. How could the trigger pull affect the point of aim in that case? I shoot a variety of guns with all different trigger styles. Some group better than others, but all shots go about where intended. I have seperated controlling the gun and controlling the trigger, so that the gun is pointed at the target at the time I decide to pull the trigger, and remains aligned until the gun fires. If you don't make an effort to seperate your index finger from the rest of your hand you will always be a slave to the timing and feel of the trigger on your prefered gun. But if your thumb and other three fingers are alone responsible for holding the gun steady, there is little the index finger can do to sabotage your aim. Call me crazy, but that's the way I see it. BTW, forgetting to decock a DA/SA is identical to forgetting to safe an SA. If you can't handle one, you aren't going to be able to rely on the other. A P7 decocks itself. A Glock isn't much different than forgetting to decock a Sig or safety a BHP.

May 4, 2006, 11:22 AM	#19
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Or, he could let go of this practice and follow the safety rules that say to keep your finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target. Your story is especially damning because you had your Glock trigger engaged and pointing at part of a man before you ID'd your target. Just because people do whatever, like stage the trigger when they don't know where the muzzle is pointing, doesn't make it a good idea. Not only is my method more adaptable, it is safer. Don't shoot your toe off.

May 4, 2006, 01:45 PM	#20
Jkwas Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida Posts: 1,778	DAO. I'm too spastic to ccw with anything else __________________ I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery. Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns http://jkwasblog.blogspot.com/

May 4, 2006, 02:22 PM	#21
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	"follow the safety rules that say to keep your finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target. " I can remenber two ocassions when if I had followed that rule I would be dead. It reminds me of a sign on a cross off a mock grave at an advanced military pistol range which said "Fools may come, and fools may go. This one went, he shot too slow!" __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

May 4, 2006, 02:25 PM	#22
TheEgg Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: TEXAS, ouside of Dallas. Posts: 374	Caplock -- check your PM. __________________ NRA Lifer. Texas State Rifle Assn. If it goes "BOOM", I like it!

May 4, 2006, 03:10 PM	#24
casingpoint Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2006 Posts: 96	Plastic Guns Don't matter who made it. If it ain't got a DAK trigger, it's crap.

May 4, 2006, 03:15 PM	#25
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Hardball and Threegun, I'm not suggesting keeping your finger well away from the trigger - I guess I wasn't being very clear. I'm saying that prestaging or starting to pull the trigger early is a habit that will get you in trouble under stress. If you think getting off your first shot is slow, you should measure how long a first hit takes if you put one in the dirt, first. When I'm firing a DA or SA gun the trigger pull is performed - RAPIDLY - once the gun is pointed at something. Even a 12 pound trigger is stroked quickly with one firm movement. The same pull works on a 4 pound SA trigger just as well - it might be overkill, but the trigger is smacked firmly either way. Of interest, a book written by a retired Delta Force guy reflects this - despite using 1911s, they slap the trigger quite hard and suddenly, relying on firm control of the pistol to insure hits rather than a dainty trigger finger. DA trigger pulls are firm, but they are not so firm as to require a pull that takes a measurably longer time than a SA pull. You can index your finger on the trigger before you do it, but you start and complete the trigger pull in one brisk movement instead of the push you're describing.