Non-firearm stopping need

Para Bellum · March 23, 2005, 05:35 PM

Our workplace (lawfirm) was the scene of an almost-lethal knife assault recently. We are 10 people in several rooms in an 250 square-meter office. I am the only one who can safely and accurately use handguns and carries all the time. My office is way in the back and not exposed at all. So if it hits the fan again, I might come to help with my handgun but am not likely to instantly have to defend myself.

The others at my firm are somewhat afraid of firearms. And if they are not willing to constantly seriously train, I don't want them to have one (I'm the boss here). This is because I don't want to have to handle an attacker and be afraid of a colleague who doesn't know what he/she's doing but waves a handgun around. You get the picture, I'm sure.

So what should I equip my employees with? Tazers? Pepper? Handheld stunguns? It needs stopping potential since knive-attacks proved to be an actual threat. Dogs are out of the question, I'm allergic.

Thank you for your time and thought.

marshall2 · March 23, 2005, 05:39 PM

I'm serious. Baseball bats in each cubicle.

Para Bellum · March 23, 2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Baseball bats in each cubicle.

Sounds good. The most exposed ones however are the secretaries, three ladies...

artsmom · March 23, 2005, 07:00 PM

My nephew was involved in a shootout, chase, shootout, car assault, chase, rollover, shootout type deal that all started when a Boulder, CO police officer tried to subdue a suspect with a taser. It did not incapacitate the suspect, and he drew a gun and shot two officers, shot at some teenagers, and then tried to run over two other cops (my nephew being one) before being rammed and shot to death by another police officer.

If guns are not an option, I say buy the best pepper spray to be had. I had over 400 hot pepper plants in the garden one year(412, to be exact), and had the unfortunate idea of grinding up some cayenne an habeneros for relish. I think I got a healthy shot of high test capscium due to bad blender operation, and was DEFINITELY incapacitated for 15+ minutes.

Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder...

Mannlicher · March 23, 2005, 07:08 PM

Put a lock on the door, hire armed guards, and pray.

mohomesteading · March 23, 2005, 08:17 PM

I am not sure what to suggest. Baseball bats, cricket bats, golf clubs...for that matter, a broom stick or inch diameter or larger dowel rod might work. The pepper spray is good too. Tasers might work, but you still have to aim them and have the presence of mind to work within the maxium effective distance of it.

In the United States, most of our one on one confrontations happen within 7 yards (a bit less than 7 meters). Someone with a knife that close can cover that distance in less than two seconds, making a firearm almost as useless if you don't know how to defend against the attacker while moving the firearm into a useful position.

I might suggest using a staff or club weapon where you might be able to extend the defender's reach over a knife-armed attacker. An attacker high on drugs may not be stopped by pepper spray and might be all the more dangerous. Tasers may not properly take down someone, and again, requires some basic aiming skills.

You might want to have a silent alarm system to alert you in your office if there is trouble up front or in another part of your law offices. At least you might get a bit more warning for you to act. This might reduce your reaction time to the threat.

USP45usp · March 23, 2005, 08:42 PM

Was this an old clinet that was ticked?

I know that it would be inconvenient to clinets but you may try a buzz lock for the door. You can pick out the recep. that you think most likely to spot "bad eggs" and then put in a call to you to make the decision before they "buzz" in the person.

There are some law offices even here in Eugene that have these. Law firms either make great friends or greater enemies (from what the lawyer at one of these firms here said).

Baseball (or if your country does more cricket) then put those on the wall (so they are easy to get to). To make it look like a "collection", do a few forged signatures of older, dead, players that people would know of. This way, your "weaponary" looks like a harmless collection.

Just ideas, hope something will work for you

.

Wayne

chris in va · March 23, 2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder

That...is truly funny.

SpectreBlofeld · March 23, 2005, 10:24 PM

Heavy paperweights and letter openers...

Or maybe an alarm, signalling for you, so you can come running with your Nine

USP45usp · March 23, 2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Or maybe an alarm, signalling for you, so you can come running with your Nine

That was truly sarcastic

. Especially with the

afterward. Shame on you

.

Plus, this guys from Europe so maybe they have different laws then we do on what can be done. He's just asking for advice.

Wayne

*sorry for the public spanking and sorry to intervine if I shouldn't have.

Greybeard · March 23, 2005, 11:05 PM

A law firm where I spent some time in Cleveland, Ohio had a camera mounted just outside entry door. Receptionist could recognize (or not) individuals through glass next to fancy wood door and push button to permit entry ...

Bo Hunter · March 24, 2005, 09:00 AM

Yes, you need a keycard entry system, and a receptionist to answer the door via a push button.... Best way is to let them into a waiting area, so, if they appear to be trouble, could be locked in to wait for the cops!

Wraith · March 24, 2005, 09:11 AM

Install those little alarms like banks?

If they aren't any good with the pistol, that's what the shotty if for.

artsmom · March 24, 2005, 02:09 PM

Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder...

That...is truly funny.

Probably, but I don't remember laughing much at the time.

SpectreBlofeld · March 24, 2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

That was truly sarcastic . Especially with the afterward. Shame on you .

Eh, I meant it to be tongue-in-cheek. Just a little levity!

USP45usp · March 24, 2005, 04:10 PM

SpectreBlofeld,

That's what the

was for, wasn't sure if it was serious or joking.

Now I know.

Wayne

BillCA · March 24, 2005, 04:50 PM

Hmm, a 3-iron? Most law offices I've seen have at least a putter in the corner!

Seriously, I'd suggest OC Pepper spray if legal in your part of Europe. Or something equally as effective that is legal.

38SnubFan · March 25, 2005, 02:45 AM

I'm thinking OC spray would be the best option. At least give YOU enough time to respond with the appropriate tool.

Quote:

Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder...

OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!

.......Bad mental picture there!

-Snub

Dwight55 · March 25, 2005, 09:11 AM

Para Bellum, . . . I work for a multinational fortune 500 company that I always thought was very open, friendly, etc. I rather naively just thought they were good guys and everyone respected them, . . . etc.

Well, . . . they're still good guys, . . . but not everyone respects them. I had to go to our Cleveland operation some time back, . . . and also to Pittsburgh also. Both have high security.

At Cleveland, I was funneled through one of four glass doors (3 were locked) so the receptionist could see me clearly. That put me between two sets of glass doors and without the card, . . . I could go no further than stand and push the intercom button. I gave her my name and contact, . . . and I stood there until my contact came up, . . . recognized me, . . . and personally opened the door to allow me in.

At Pittsburgh, . . . every day there I had to sign in, give photo ID, corporate ID, . . . etc., before I could even get on an elevator going anywhere other than the main floor.

All in all, it is not that expensive to set up, . . . and the double sets of doors can be rigged to isolate and imprison the person awaiting LEO presence.

May God bless,
Dwight

Para Bellum · March 25, 2005, 03:47 PM

Thank you for your time and thought.

after the incident, I immediately gave every employee an OC-Pepper-Spray. And according to your statements I was right doing so.

All the camera and surveillance ideas wouldn't really help. As attorneys we make people either extremely happy (we win for our clients) or extremely angry (we win for our clients, and that means loss for the angry guys). Anyway we live and work on an interface to extreme emotions. Therefore everybody could freak out.

We had let the attacker in before he stabbed my partner in the head. He was known to us and "friendly". We did pro-bono work for his mother and were very successful. He came to our firm with his mother often, so we knew him. After we made lots of money for his mother, he also wanted to be represented by us. But we turned him down because the stories he told us were quite weird.

The fourth time he came, my partner said no again and then he said: "If you are not helping me, even you are against me. Maybe all this conspiracy against me was triggered by you!". He left and my partner shook his head. The next day he came in the morning. As the secretary knew him, she opened the door and offered him a seat in the lobby. He pushed her aside, dashed to my partner's office and stabbed him in the head until his folding-knife broke. Then he left. The absurd part of it is that the attack happened the exact time I would have been in the very room every day, armed and trained with my 9x19 and 15yrs of martial arts. Just that very day I happened to be 500Km away in a court hearing. I dreamed a dozen times about how I could have prevented this.

No we know that this guy actually is insane. He was in a mental-hospital before, is schizophrenic-paranoiac and was arrested for assault and battery three times, and has a heroin problem. Perfect son in law, isn't he?

It took my partner two months and seven operations to recover. He actually was quite lucky and only has little long-term effects in one eye.

Anyway: We sometimes have to talk and negotiate with people who truly hate us because the want to settle a dispute etc. So in any case we have to let people in who have the potential or a "cause" to freak out.

We however have a door security system and reduce the risk, but indoor defense is unfortunately very necessary.

tintcutter · March 25, 2005, 06:36 PM

So realistically, the best gift is a mental one.

No toy will protect better than a thought.

Give the gift of awareness, security related thinking etc. Guns are tools used by the brain.

Ever see these movies with all the fighting sans guns?

Chase the mentality of a gun fearing person and you see they fail to consider many, many issues.

Make these people honestly percieve their environment. Never push a weapon at them. Push the environment at them, and describe as many security options to them as you can. The trained security personell might have more ideas, but avoid vanity on your part. It is amazing what people can do when you teach them to fish.

Capt. Charlie · March 25, 2005, 07:40 PM

Uh, trust me on this one; use OC in an enclosed area and your office will be uninhabitable for awhile. I'm recommending the X-26 Taser with shaped pulse technology, and the cartridges with the longest probes (for penetrating clothing). I've deployed a Taser several times with excellent results. They do work against drunks and druggies, and when they don't, it's usually operator error. The biggest mistake seems to be trying to use it on a running person, or while you're running. Target the major muscle groups. The more muscular the person is, the more effective the Taser is. They are good up to 21 feet, but the ideal distance is 7 to 13 feet. During Taser training, we had to "ride the full 5" (seconds, that is). Trust me on this one too, NO one can fight against a properly deployed Taser!!! If you are determined to go with OC, DON'T get the over-the-counter stuff sold at Wal Mart, etc. It's worthless and will only pi** the bad guy off. You want the 10% law enforcement issue stuff.

March 23, 2005, 05:35 PM	#1
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Non-firearm stopping need Our workplace (lawfirm) was the scene of an almost-lethal knife assault recently. We are 10 people in several rooms in an 250 square-meter office. I am the only one who can safely and accurately use handguns and carries all the time. My office is way in the back and not exposed at all. So if it hits the fan again, I might come to help with my handgun but am not likely to instantly have to defend myself. The others at my firm are somewhat afraid of firearms. And if they are not willing to constantly seriously train, I don't want them to have one (I'm the boss here). This is because I don't want to have to handle an attacker and be afraid of a colleague who doesn't know what he/she's doing but waves a handgun around. You get the picture, I'm sure. So what should I equip my employees with? Tazers? Pepper? Handheld stunguns? It needs stopping potential since knive-attacks proved to be an actual threat. Dogs are out of the question, I'm allergic. Thank you for your time and thought. __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

March 23, 2005, 05:39 PM	#2
marshall2 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Signal Mountain, TN Posts: 197	Baseball bats I'm serious. Baseball bats in each cubicle.

March 23, 2005, 07:08 PM	#5
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	Put a lock on the door, hire armed guards, and pray. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

March 23, 2005, 08:17 PM	#6
mohomesteading Junior Member Join Date: September 5, 2004 Posts: 11	Perhaps educating them in martial arts? I am not sure what to suggest. Baseball bats, cricket bats, golf clubs...for that matter, a broom stick or inch diameter or larger dowel rod might work. The pepper spray is good too. Tasers might work, but you still have to aim them and have the presence of mind to work within the maxium effective distance of it. In the United States, most of our one on one confrontations happen within 7 yards (a bit less than 7 meters). Someone with a knife that close can cover that distance in less than two seconds, making a firearm almost as useless if you don't know how to defend against the attacker while moving the firearm into a useful position. I might suggest using a staff or club weapon where you might be able to extend the defender's reach over a knife-armed attacker. An attacker high on drugs may not be stopped by pepper spray and might be all the more dangerous. Tasers may not properly take down someone, and again, requires some basic aiming skills. You might want to have a silent alarm system to alert you in your office if there is trouble up front or in another part of your law offices. At least you might get a bit more warning for you to act. This might reduce your reaction time to the threat.

March 23, 2005, 11:05 PM	#11
Greybeard Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2002 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 686	A law firm where I spent some time in Cleveland, Ohio had a camera mounted just outside entry door. Receptionist could recognize (or not) individuals through glass next to fancy wood door and push button to permit entry ... __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

March 23, 2005, 07:00 PM	#4
artsmom Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 334	My nephew was involved in a shootout, chase, shootout, car assault, chase, rollover, shootout type deal that all started when a Boulder, CO police officer tried to subdue a suspect with a taser. It did not incapacitate the suspect, and he drew a gun and shot two officers, shot at some teenagers, and then tried to run over two other cops (my nephew being one) before being rammed and shot to death by another police officer. If guns are not an option, I say buy the best pepper spray to be had. I had over 400 hot pepper plants in the garden one year(412, to be exact), and had the unfortunate idea of grinding up some cayenne an habeneros for relish. I think I got a healthy shot of high test capscium due to bad blender operation, and was DEFINITELY incapacitated for 15+ minutes. Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder...

March 23, 2005, 08:42 PM	#7
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	Was this an old clinet that was ticked? I know that it would be inconvenient to clinets but you may try a buzz lock for the door. You can pick out the recep. that you think most likely to spot "bad eggs" and then put in a call to you to make the decision before they "buzz" in the person. There are some law offices even here in Eugene that have these. Law firms either make great friends or greater enemies (from what the lawyer at one of these firms here said). Baseball (or if your country does more cricket) then put those on the wall (so they are easy to get to). To make it look like a "collection", do a few forged signatures of older, dead, players that people would know of. This way, your "weaponary" looks like a harmless collection. Just ideas, hope something will work for you . Wayne

March 23, 2005, 10:24 PM	#9
SpectreBlofeld Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Posts: 304	Heavy paperweights and letter openers... Or maybe an alarm, signalling for you, so you can come running with your Nine

March 24, 2005, 09:00 AM	#12
Bo Hunter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: New York Posts: 107	Security System... Yes, you need a keycard entry system, and a receptionist to answer the door via a push button.... Best way is to let them into a waiting area, so, if they appear to be trouble, could be locked in to wait for the cops!

March 24, 2005, 09:11 AM	#13
Wraith Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2004 Location: The Free State Posts: 498	Install those little alarms like banks? If they aren't any good with the pistol, that's what the shotty if for. __________________ June 23, 2003 GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al. The day America died. Never Forget 9/11. Cold dead hands...

March 24, 2005, 02:09 PM	#14
artsmom Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 334	Oh, and if you are canning hot peppers, wash your hands THREE times before relieving your bladder... That...is truly funny. Probably, but I don't remember laughing much at the time.

March 24, 2005, 04:10 PM	#16
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	SpectreBlofeld, That's what the was for, wasn't sure if it was serious or joking. Now I know. Wayne

March 24, 2005, 04:50 PM	#17
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	Hmm, a 3-iron? Most law offices I've seen have at least a putter in the corner! Seriously, I'd suggest OC Pepper spray if legal in your part of Europe. Or something equally as effective that is legal. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

March 25, 2005, 09:11 AM	#19
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Para Bellum, . . . I work for a multinational fortune 500 company that I always thought was very open, friendly, etc. I rather naively just thought they were good guys and everyone respected them, . . . etc. Well, . . . they're still good guys, . . . but not everyone respects them. I had to go to our Cleveland operation some time back, . . . and also to Pittsburgh also. Both have high security. At Cleveland, I was funneled through one of four glass doors (3 were locked) so the receptionist could see me clearly. That put me between two sets of glass doors and without the card, . . . I could go no further than stand and push the intercom button. I gave her my name and contact, . . . and I stood there until my contact came up, . . . recognized me, . . . and personally opened the door to allow me in. At Pittsburgh, . . . every day there I had to sign in, give photo ID, corporate ID, . . . etc., before I could even get on an elevator going anywhere other than the main floor. All in all, it is not that expensive to set up, . . . and the double sets of doors can be rigged to isolate and imprison the person awaiting LEO presence. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

March 25, 2005, 03:47 PM	#20
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	more details Thank you for your time and thought. after the incident, I immediately gave every employee an OC-Pepper-Spray. And according to your statements I was right doing so. All the camera and surveillance ideas wouldn't really help. As attorneys we make people either extremely happy (we win for our clients) or extremely angry (we win for our clients, and that means loss for the angry guys). Anyway we live and work on an interface to extreme emotions. Therefore everybody could freak out. We had let the attacker in before he stabbed my partner in the head. He was known to us and "friendly". We did pro-bono work for his mother and were very successful. He came to our firm with his mother often, so we knew him. After we made lots of money for his mother, he also wanted to be represented by us. But we turned him down because the stories he told us were quite weird. The fourth time he came, my partner said no again and then he said: "If you are not helping me, even you are against me. Maybe all this conspiracy against me was triggered by you!". He left and my partner shook his head. The next day he came in the morning. As the secretary knew him, she opened the door and offered him a seat in the lobby. He pushed her aside, dashed to my partner's office and stabbed him in the head until his folding-knife broke. Then he left. The absurd part of it is that the attack happened the exact time I would have been in the very room every day, armed and trained with my 9x19 and 15yrs of martial arts. Just that very day I happened to be 500Km away in a court hearing. I dreamed a dozen times about how I could have prevented this. No we know that this guy actually is insane. He was in a mental-hospital before, is schizophrenic-paranoiac and was arrested for assault and battery three times, and has a heroin problem. Perfect son in law, isn't he? It took my partner two months and seven operations to recover. He actually was quite lucky and only has little long-term effects in one eye. Anyway: We sometimes have to talk and negotiate with people who truly hate us because the want to settle a dispute etc. So in any case we have to let people in who have the potential or a "cause" to freak out. We however have a door security system and reduce the risk, but indoor defense is unfortunately very necessary. __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

March 25, 2005, 06:36 PM	#21
tintcutter Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 207	So realistically, the best gift is a mental one. No toy will protect better than a thought. Give the gift of awareness, security related thinking etc. Guns are tools used by the brain. Ever see these movies with all the fighting sans guns? Chase the mentality of a gun fearing person and you see they fail to consider many, many issues. Make these people honestly percieve their environment. Never push a weapon at them. Push the environment at them, and describe as many security options to them as you can. The trained security personell might have more ideas, but avoid vanity on your part. It is amazing what people can do when you teach them to fish. __________________ The fine art of B.S. is not found in what is said, but in its plausibility.

March 25, 2005, 07:40 PM	#22
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Uh, trust me on this one; use OC in an enclosed area and your office will be uninhabitable for awhile. I'm recommending the X-26 Taser with shaped pulse technology, and the cartridges with the longest probes (for penetrating clothing). I've deployed a Taser several times with excellent results. They do work against drunks and druggies, and when they don't, it's usually operator error. The biggest mistake seems to be trying to use it on a running person, or while you're running. Target the major muscle groups. The more muscular the person is, the more effective the Taser is. They are good up to 21 feet, but the ideal distance is 7 to 13 feet. During Taser training, we had to "ride the full 5" (seconds, that is). Trust me on this one too, NO one can fight against a properly deployed Taser!!! If you are determined to go with OC, DON'T get the over-the-counter stuff sold at Wal Mart, etc. It's worthless and will only pi** the bad guy off. You want the 10% law enforcement issue stuff.