Constructive Intent...

fl_rich · June 6, 2018, 07:14 PM

I have a CZ 805 Bren S1 pistol with a supressor.

I run a brace on it but I also have several ARs and as an AR owner lots of spare parts. Including a spare stock,tube, buffer etc.

Is there an issue having stocks around that could easily be installed on my Bren creating an SBR. Using the constructive intent argument? I believe that's the term that describes having the parts available to construct an NFA regulated firearm. I'm sure I have the parts available to install an adjustable stock on the Bren but no intent to assemble it in that configuration. I'd also rather not SBR it as I don't want the legal baggage of another NBA item.

Thank you all,
Rich

marine6680 · June 6, 2018, 07:29 PM

Constructive intent only would apply if you had no other valid firearms in which to install a stock.

Say your only firearm was your Bren pistol, and you owned a stock that could be installed on that Bren pistol... That qualifies.

Since you own other firearms, and rifles... That can accept those stocks, there is no way to show reasonably that your only intent and option with those stocks is to attach it to your pistol.

raimius · June 6, 2018, 08:16 PM

As Marine6680 alluded to, if you have other firearms that the parts are for, you should be clear...unless you install them on your SBR-length firearm or state your intent to do so.

Theohazard · June 7, 2018, 07:39 AM

The Supreme Court answered the OP’s question in the 1992 case US v. Thompson-Center Arms Co. For many years after that case the ATF maintained that that ruling applied only to the Thompson-Center firearm in question, but in 2011 they changed their mind and issued an official ruling based on that decision, ATF Ruling 2011-4.

Basically, in order to get in trouble for possessing an unregistered SBR merely because you possess the unassembled parts needed to make one, those parts must be in “close proximity” to each other and you must also have no other “useful purpose” for having them. So as long as you have a regular 16” rifle that can accept those stocks, you should be fine.

Obviously, the term “close proximity” is a judgement call, and a lawyer would probably tell you that there are all sorts of various details I’m leaving out that could still cause legal problems. That said, ATF Ruling 2011-4 is a good guideline for questions like the OP is posing.

fl_rich · June 7, 2018, 05:37 PM

Thank you all! Great information backed up by facts!

Elkins45 · June 10, 2018, 05:38 PM

Just to be pedantic, there’s really no such thing as “constructive intent.” IIRC the legal term is “constructive posession,” the idea being that intent can’t be demonstrated but posession can. It doesn’t mater what you might intend unless you posess the parts, and if you posess the parts you don’t have to intend to use them illegally to be in violation.

Don’t ever have only the parts to assemble an illegal gun all together in one place unless you also have the parts to assemble in a legal configuration.

Mobuck · June 11, 2018, 04:22 AM

I keep my short barreled uppers pinned to "pistol" lowers at all times except while cleaning. I even have a couple of "never been used" pistol configuration lowers sitting in boxes just in case an orphan short barrel upper lands on my door step.

stagpanther · June 11, 2018, 06:32 AM

If you get into builds--you will end up with racks and racks of parts. If constructive intent were true by the mere presence of parts that could be used to make a lower into an SBR--I would have been sent off to the big house long ago. By the same "constructive intent" when I build a pistol, I take pictures of it in it's "pistol compliant intent" and, should I wish to use the lower for a rifle build (which I've never done since the pistol set-up I do is inherently different from a rifle set-up anyway) I would make sure that the matching parts of the original pistol configuration were retained in my possession.

Sharkbite · June 11, 2018, 09:55 AM

Quote:

I even have a couple of "never been used" pistol configuration lowers sitting in boxes just in case an orphan short barrel upper lands on my door step.

Its not a one upper for one lower proposition. You dont need to have lowers for each upper. 10 uppers <16” and one pistol or SBR lower still makes you legal.

Of course, having a bunch of lower is not a bad thing

Mobuck · June 12, 2018, 09:01 PM

"You dont need to have lowers for each upper.Of course, having a bunch of lower is not a bad thing"

I'll take that as a vote of confidence.
After being on the receiving end of some rather detailed questions asked by an ATF agent, I don't leave ANYTHING open to their perception or definition. On any given day one of those dudes can with the stroke of a pen, turn a law abiding gun owner into an accused felon and confiscate ALL your toys for "evidence".

June 6, 2018, 07:14 PM	#1
fl_rich Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2015 Posts: 103	Constructive Intent... I have a CZ 805 Bren S1 pistol with a supressor. I run a brace on it but I also have several ARs and as an AR owner lots of spare parts. Including a spare stock,tube, buffer etc. Is there an issue having stocks around that could easily be installed on my Bren creating an SBR. Using the constructive intent argument? I believe that's the term that describes having the parts available to construct an NFA regulated firearm. I'm sure I have the parts available to install an adjustable stock on the Bren but no intent to assemble it in that configuration. I'd also rather not SBR it as I don't want the legal baggage of another NBA item. Thank you all, Rich

June 7, 2018, 07:39 AM	#4
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	The Supreme Court answered the OP’s question in the 1992 case US v. Thompson-Center Arms Co. For many years after that case the ATF maintained that that ruling applied only to the Thompson-Center firearm in question, but in 2011 they changed their mind and issued an official ruling based on that decision, ATF Ruling 2011-4. Basically, in order to get in trouble for possessing an unregistered SBR merely because you possess the unassembled parts needed to make one, those parts must be in “close proximity” to each other and you must also have no other “useful purpose” for having them. So as long as you have a regular 16” rifle that can accept those stocks, you should be fine. Obviously, the term “close proximity” is a judgement call, and a lawyer would probably tell you that there are all sorts of various details I’m leaving out that could still cause legal problems. That said, ATF Ruling 2011-4 is a good guideline for questions like the OP is posing. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

June 11, 2018, 06:32 AM	#8
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	If you get into builds--you will end up with racks and racks of parts. If constructive intent were true by the mere presence of parts that could be used to make a lower into an SBR--I would have been sent off to the big house long ago. By the same "constructive intent" when I build a pistol, I take pictures of it in it's "pistol compliant intent" and, should I wish to use the lower for a rifle build (which I've never done since the pistol set-up I do is inherently different from a rifle set-up anyway) I would make sure that the *matching parts of the original pistol configuration* were retained in my possession. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 6, 2018, 07:29 PM	#2
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Constructive intent only would apply if you had no other valid firearms in which to install a stock. Say your only firearm was your Bren pistol, and you owned a stock that could be installed on that Bren pistol... That qualifies. Since you own other firearms, and rifles... That can accept those stocks, there is no way to show reasonably that your only intent and option with those stocks is to attach it to your pistol.

June 6, 2018, 08:16 PM	#3
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	As Marine6680 alluded to, if you have other firearms that the parts are for, you should be clear...unless you install them on your SBR-length firearm or state your intent to do so.

June 7, 2018, 05:37 PM	#5
fl_rich Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2015 Posts: 103	Thank you all! Great information backed up by facts!

June 10, 2018, 05:38 PM	#6
Elkins45 Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2010 Posts: 498	Just to be pedantic, there’s really no such thing as “constructive intent.” IIRC the legal term is “constructive posession,” the idea being that intent can’t be demonstrated but posession can. It doesn’t mater what you might intend unless you posess the parts, and if you posess the parts you don’t have to intend to use them illegally to be in violation. Don’t ever have only the parts to assemble an illegal gun all together in one place unless you also have the parts to assemble in a legal configuration.

June 11, 2018, 04:22 AM	#7
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I keep my short barreled uppers pinned to "pistol" lowers at all times except while cleaning. I even have a couple of "never been used" pistol configuration lowers sitting in boxes just in case an orphan short barrel upper lands on my door step.

June 12, 2018, 09:01 PM	#10
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"You dont need to have lowers for each upper.Of course, having a bunch of lower is not a bad thing" I'll take that as a vote of confidence. After being on the receiving end of some rather detailed questions asked by an ATF agent, I don't leave ANYTHING open to their perception or definition. On any given day one of those dudes can with the stroke of a pen, turn a law abiding gun owner into an accused felon and confiscate ALL your toys for "evidence".