10mm Carbine Hunting?

[Model12Win]

Guys with the Hi-Point 10mm carbine soon to hit the market, I'm thinking on buying one due to the low cost.

What is the largest game animal you all would hunt with a 10mm carbine?

[Crankylove]

I’d do mule deer out to 50 yards.

It may be capable of more, but that would be my limit.

[COSteve]

I love the 10mm and in my custom 6" Glock G20/21L that I developed way back in 2004, I've got 'nuclear' 165grn handloads that come close to 1,600fps! That said, I also have 357mag leverguns, both a 20" carbine and a 24" rifle which I also handload for. My 158grn Elmer Keith level loads in my 24" push near 2,000fps and just over 1,900fps in my 20" carbine. I've also shot a friend's 16" 10mm AR and even with my hottest loads, the 10mm just doesn't perform that well in a long barrel.

The reason is the difference in case size and powders used in the two calibers. The 10mm cartridge was developed to produce maximum velocity out of a 4-5" long barrel using a small case and a does of fast burning powder. Works great the way it was designed.

The 357mag was designed completely differently, in a different time with different components available. It's a magnum version of a 38spl which was first developed in 1898 and used black powder! That means the case is significantly larger than a 10mm case and the 357mag's case is even bigger.

With a case volume nearly twice as large and nearly the same SAAMI spec max pressure (10mm: 37,500psi vs 357mag 35,000psi [Elmer Keith loads to 40,000psi]) the 357mag has the advantage of using the bulkier, slower burning magnum pistol powders originally developed for shotguns.

What this means is that the 357mag's larger case capacity can hold much more of the slower burning powder which works better in the longer barreled rifles and carbines vs even the best 10mm powders like Power Pistol.

Bottom line, if you're thinking about hunting with a pistol caliber rifle or carbine, you'd be much better off with a 357mag, 44mag, or even a 45 Colt than a 10mm but you're still going to be limited to about 100yds for small deer.

I get the attraction of the 10mm and other hot pistol calibers. I shoot and handload for 38spl/357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, 45 Colt, 45 Super, and 10mm in my pistols. I own a 40s&w Hi-Point I got off a buddy who needed money as well. But for pistol caliber long guns, the only calibers worth anything are my 357mag and 45 Colts leverguns. I have each caliber in both a 20" carbine and 24" rifle version and my 357mag rifle is good and accurate even out to 300yds (however, that range is just for steel, not game.

Edit To Add: This information is for the smaller white tail deer of the SE only. Here in Colorado, the 44mag and 357mag just don't have the range or ME to humanely hunt any of our mule deer. A 10mm? Forget it!! We grow them large here as this picture of a normal sized prime age male in my back yard during last fall's rut will show.

[T. O'Heir]

"...mule deer..." Only if you're sitting on its back. No 10mm load has sufficient energy out of an 18" barrel to hunt anything but varmints and small game. A full grown mule deer buck can run 300 pounds. Less than 1,000 ft-lbs. of muzzle energy is not enough.
This is the Ballistics By The Inch tested energy by bullet weight and velocity chart.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/10mm.html

[jimbob86]

"...mule deer..." Only if you're sitting on its back. No 10mm load has sufficient energy out of an 18" barrel to hunt anything but varmints and small game. A full grown mule deer buck can run 300 pounds. Less than 1,000 ft-lbs. of muzzle energy is not enough.

+1.

[Big Shrek]

...

[Big Shrek]

"...mule deer..." Only if you're sitting on its back. No 10mm load has sufficient energy out of an 18" barrel to hunt anything but varmints and small game. A full grown mule deer buck can run 300 pounds. Less than 1,000 ft-lbs. of muzzle energy is not enough.

Horsehockey. People choose 10mm as defense against 1000-lb Alaskan Bear.
Mule Deer are FAR easier to kill, and ain't trying to eat you.

Whattya consider a 100-grain arrow out of a bow at around 250fps??
Folks been using those for decades, and SLOWER, as bows weren't all that
fast back in the old days...sure did work just fine, tho. Ask any archer.

Folks used to use blackpowder pistols to kill 2,000-lb Buffalo, worked just fine.
Just had to be within the effective range of the given 1860 Army Revolver.
People did that for decades, on a lot of critters.

Size just makes the placement of the shot more important.
Get within 75 yards on a big critter and 10mm will do its job if you can aim well.
10mm will kill any wild animal living in North America, if the pistoleer can shoot well.

If you can harvest an animal with a bow, you can dang sure harvest it with a 10mm pistol or carbine.

[MarkCO]

Yeah, that 550 pound Cow Elk I shot at 80 yards with my 10mm Razorback was just misinformed.

I'd hunt deer within reasonable range and placement with a 10mm handgun or carbine.

But, as COSteve mentioned, getting a blowback 10mm to run right necessitates the faster powders so the gains are not going to be huge. My AR10mm is a DI gun and the velocity and energy are downright impressive since I can use slow magnum pistol powders. There are a few loads that meet the CO requirement of 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

[MagnumWill]

I could have sworn I read about Elmer Keith hunting black bear with his .357 service revolver, I’m sure he would have had no qualms with a 10mm...

[bamaranger]

The 10mm has power at or slightly in excess of typical .357 mag range from handguns, lagging or exceeding depending on load and firearm. The .357 from a revolver has killed a bunch of big game, and more from a carbine so chambered as well. Nobody declares the .357 a small game cartridge.

I'd hunt whitetails with a 10mm carbine with few reservations, provided my shots were under 100 yds with the carbine, and half that with the handgun. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a typical hog with one either. Pick the right slug, and place the shot

[bamaranger]

I liked Shrek's post.......for me, handgun range is bow range, and I haven't killed a whitetail yet with a bow past 30 yds.. In fact, I don't think I've ever SHOT at one past 30 odd paces.

But.... what I think Shrek meant to say when referencing modern archery was a 100 grain "broadhead". Even the light carbon arrows of today will run 200 grains plus, and then one must add the broadhead, vanes, nock and inserts. My light hunting arrows (125 gr head) , complete, weigh just under 400 grains, the same set up with a heavier head go about 425. Though not really an apples to apples comparison, (bullets and broadheads and how they kill) the penetrating power of a SHARP 400-425 grain arrow at 250-275 fps plus is hard to believe. And the in the old days, when I shot 555 grain arrows at less than 200 fps, those heavy shafts I think even penetrated better.

And yes, placement is the key word. I know nothing of mule deer, but feel comfortable discussing whitetails . Deer are not all that hard to kill, provided you hit them right. I hunt mostly moderately powered cartridges for deer these days, and now believe that most folks are largely overgunned for whitetails. At least our southern deer than run about 150 live, with a whopper going about 200 ( they shot one on our lease this year that went 218 live). My .44 carbine, x39mm bolt rifle and mini30, a .45 muzzleloader with round ball, and I have no doubt a 10mm carbine, will anchor any similar critter no problem, if I hit'em right.

[agtman]

for me, handgun range is bow range, and I haven't killed a whitetail yet with a bow past 30 yds.. In fact, I don't think I've ever SHOT at one past 30 odd paces.

Yep. And the 10mm has put down some big critters within that range, although a heavy cast slug moving very fast should be terminal out to 50-yds or more.

And yep, this too:

And yes, placement is the key word. I know nothing of mule deer, but feel comfortable discussing whitetails. Deer are not all that hard to kill, provided you hit them right.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Yeah, that 550 pound Cow Elk I shot at 80 yards with my 10mm Razorback was just misinformed.

I'd hunt deer within reasonable range and placement with a 10mm handgun or carbine.

But, as COSteve mentioned, getting a blowback 10mm to run right necessitates the faster powders so the gains are not going to be huge. My AR10mm is a DI gun and the velocity and energy are downright impressive since I can use slow magnum pistol powders. There are a few loads that meet the CO requirement of 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

No doubt the 10mm handgun is powerful. I've loved mine since I made it back in 2004 and that's why I carry it in the woods. Even with my hot handloads for both the 357mag and 10mm, my 10 produces slightly higher velocities, with a heavier, larger diameter 165grn bullet that produces 925ft/lbs of ME in my 6" Glock, than do my hottest and best 158grn 357mag loads I use in my leverguns in a friend's 6" S&W 686. All in a package is that lighter, more compact, and holds 3 times the load (17+1rds vs 6rds) with another 17rds just seconds away.

As to slower magnum powders in the 10mm, I've tried both H110 and Lil'Gun, both of which wonders in my 357mag leverguns, in my 10mm and I just can't stuff enough powder in the smaller case to produce anything close to the velocities I can using Power Pistol powder. Nothing even in the same league of what I get when I shoot my 158grn 357mag from a 20" or better, a 24" long levergun barrel.

But, I've followed some of MarkCO's posts since the early 2000's and he has demonstrated repeatedly that he knoweth of what he speaks!! So if MarkCO has a DI AR10MM that he says works at close range, it does. And you can take that to the bank!!

Originally Posted by bamaranger

The 10mm has power at or slightly in excess of typical .357 mag range from handguns, lagging or exceeding depending on load and firearm. The .357 from a revolver has killed a bunch of big game, and more from a carbine so chambered as well. Nobody declares the .357 a small game cartridge.

I'd hunt whitetails with a 10mm carbine with few reservations, provided my shots were under 100 yds with the carbine, and half that with the handgun. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a typical hog with one either. Pick the right slug, and place the shot

Very true. Both the 357mag and 10mm shine when shot from a longer barreled pistol. My 6" custom Glock shows velocity gains using my 'nuclear' level 10mm loads that a far and away higher velocities than shooting the exact same rd through a my neighbor's stock G20 at the same time. Further, I shot some of my hot 357mag loads through a friend's long barreled Ruger and they are similarly impressive with the added length. My feeling is that a 6" bbl is the minimum pistol length for best hunting performance in a pistol.

[zipspyder]

Sounds like a great deer caliber within "longer bow shot" type ranges. Know it's limitations, use the right ammo and you will be fine.

[disseminator]

Deer COSteve,

Because you have this in your back yard, I have to hate you a little bit.

[GeauxTide]

The big issue, to me, is using the right bullets. The cartridge was designed for law enforcement use, so the bullets are not designed for game. The closest I could find was the Nosler 180gr HP. I would recommend a 41, 44, or 45 lever to take advantage of heavier constructed bullets.

[stagpanther]

180 xtp out of a 16" carbine--not nuclear--but nothing to sneeze at either.
Shot on a near zero degree day and I know I was losing some velocity due to the cold.



Had a bit of trouble with tracking beyond 50 yds--plus my battery was just about dead so there are a couple of anomalies.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by disseminator

Deer COSteve,

Because you have this in your back yard, I have to hate you a little bit.

Yesterday, we had a small 'get together' in the yard. In the front yard we had a buck with his harem of 7 females and in the back yard we had a buck with his harem of 4 females. Having 13 deer on the property at one time isn't unusual either.

[stagpanther]

There are a few loads that meet the CO requirement of 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

Now THAT is one impressive load! May I be so indiscreet as to ask what 10mm load does that?