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Old January 8, 2018, 09:10 AM   #1
stonewall50
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“Chinese food/dominos/little Caesars/takeout” Force on Force?

I got to thinking about how most takeout restaurants look vaguely similar (counter, few tables and chairs on the sides and people behind the counter and a kind of line there). I got to thinking about how one might respond to a threat in this environment and the unique situation it presents...open space, close proximity, food/money/drink in your hands. The threat may come from behind you as you are in the front of the line. Your target may very easily have someone behind them as well. You may have to get physical first to clear a weapon (if forced).

What would be some suggestions you might give to training for this kind of event? Any force on force drills? Or individual practice drills that might help? I know one thing I will start doing is not keeping a bag ON my wrist, and then of course I need to train dropping stuff and then drawing. Feel free to analyze...just curious what is out there for this particular situation.


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Old January 8, 2018, 11:51 AM   #2
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I have thought long and hard about this very thing. I have developed a tactical plan that I feel mitigates most of the danger.

I call them first......I tell them what I want......then I have them bring it to me.

Sorry I couldn’t resist. Honestly I don’t seem them as any different then your most likely confrontation as it will likely be close and frenzied no matter where it happens.
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Old January 8, 2018, 12:45 PM   #3
stonewall50
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I have thought long and hard about this very thing. I have developed a tactical plan that I feel mitigates most of the danger.



I call them first......I tell them what I want......then I have them bring it to me.



Sorry I couldn’t resist. Honestly I don’t seem them as any different then your most likely confrontation as it will likely be close and frenzied no matter where it happens.

Lol. Not all places deliver.

While I agree...if you look at the layouts and floor plans...you have the option of putting things between you (concealment/cover) mostly. Where as in this type of setting you likely won’t have anything. Plus you may have something in your hands already...that is useless as a weapon...unless it is hot coffee lol.


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Old January 8, 2018, 01:05 PM   #4
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What scenario are you envisioning that you can drop stuff, draw your weapon, and use force? Let's say someone is holding up the place: the best "good guy" move you can accomplish at that point, assuming it does not escalate to open shooting, is to be a good witness as you attempt to retreat to cover or out the door. Frankly you have not lost much tactically if it starts shooting. If someone comes in as an active shooter you are going to have to hope that other targets distract the shooter long enough for you to act.

Aside from being able to react, and move as you act, I'm not really certain one can prepare well for this. Some situations are just going to go badly in the end.
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Old January 8, 2018, 01:08 PM   #5
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Could just take this as another reason to not eat junk food.

I don’t see how you could ever win if a little careers was held up and you were in there. It is very small, glass everywhere and a choke point.
Best you can do is be aware and walk in with a dummy wallet or only have a little bit of cash.
In the end though you can only do so much before you already let a Potential bad guy win. Some guys won’t wear watches, hide their id, etc.
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Old January 8, 2018, 01:13 PM   #6
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You cannot possibly anticipate and practice for every conceivable situation in every place.
"...open space, close proximity..." Describes nearly every shopping mall parking lot confrontation. Inside, tables and chairs offer some concealment if nothing else. Chairs fly pretty well too.
"...need to train dropping stuff..." You throw stuff not drop. Give you an instant of the bad guy ducking.
Most takeout restaurants deliver or they go out of business. Mind you, if you've ever seen the kitchen of a Chinese place, you'll never eat there again.
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Old January 8, 2018, 01:14 PM   #7
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What scenario are you envisioning that you can drop stuff, draw your weapon, and use force? Let's say someone is holding up the place: the best "good guy" move you can accomplish at that point, assuming it does not escalate to open shooting, is to be a good witness as you attempt to retreat to cover or out the door. Frankly you have not lost much tactically if it starts shooting. If someone comes in as an active shooter you are going to have to hope that other targets distract the shooter long enough for you to act.



Aside from being able to react, and move as you act, I'm not really certain one can prepare well for this. Some situations are just going to go badly in the end.

Mainly I was thinking of a force on Force scenario with someone who gets violent as they enter (drunk or drugs or whatever). I know people have gotten upset here when you mention the need for training how to react to a hands on situation...but that is something I would look for. If someone is actually going hands on. It is a close proximity drill and it probably will end badly. There are certainly videos on YouTube of someone needing and not having in a situation kind of like above. Plenty of videos of them having them too.


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Old January 8, 2018, 01:34 PM   #8
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Mainly I was thinking of a force on Force scenario with someone who gets violent as they enter (drunk or drugs or whatever). I know people have gotten upset here when you mention the need for training how to react to a hands on situation...but that is something I would look for. If someone is actually going hands on. It is a close proximity drill and it probably will end badly. There are certainly videos on YouTube of someone needing and not having in a situation kind of like above. Plenty of videos of them having them too.
Pick your martial art, boxing, or whatever contact "fighting" sport you want. Some are going to be better than others but all of them are going to be better than nothing. Practice several times a week if possible or at least once a week. It will help keep you in shape to a degree and help you be more competent than most people. Creating enough distance to draw should you be engaged in fisticuffs with someone is a pretty daunting task if they are at all competent and if they are not you may not actually be under an attack that rises to the justification of deadly force. Simply being in superior physical shape helps.
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Old January 8, 2018, 03:50 PM   #9
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Pick your martial art, boxing, or whatever contact "fighting" sport you want. Some are going to be better than others but all of them are going to be better than nothing. Practice several times a week if possible or at least once a week. It will help keep you in shape to a degree and help you be more competent than most people. Creating enough distance to draw should you be engaged in fisticuffs with someone is a pretty daunting task if they are at all competent and if they are not you may not actually be under an attack that rises to the justification of deadly force. Simply being in superior physical shape helps.


I’ve doing BJJ with a heavy emphasis on stand up (instructor started in judo and it is all the same basically...we just get to finish) for 8 years. I’ve done some competition and I’m quite good at knocking people over (heavyweight myself). We don’t do firearms though. :/


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Old January 8, 2018, 04:14 PM   #10
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If you are capable over overcoming your opponent at contact distance without a firearm I do not see what you would gain by introducing one.
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Old January 8, 2018, 07:19 PM   #11
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Don't make it rocket science.. there are not that many ways to fight with a handgun. Choose a gun-kwan (fighting style) that you believe in and invest yourself in it. A fight is a fight is just a fight regardless of the venue.

There are not very many special considerations about getting your gun into action and you will not likely have but mere milliseconds to decide a course of action.

If you can [smoothly] draw and shoot.. shoot and move..shoot from less than perfect positions like supine and prone -and- are a decent marksman, you can probably wing it. Things rarely go as planned in the middle of a fast moving crisis, you just have to figure it out. hopefully you will have some decent training to fall back on. Most tactics can be applied to varying venues and circumstances. When they cant, you can often times use the spirit of those things which closely resemble your particular situation and --- wing it.

force on force is a good place to iron those things out. Close quarters are close quarters, regardless if its a pizza place or a laundry mat.
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Old January 8, 2018, 09:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
stonewall50 wrote:
The threat may come from behind you as you are in the front of the line.
Actually, when something like this happened in the town where my father lived, they came in through the back door, took the kitchen staff hostage and then moved into the customer service area.

If they do enter through the front door then you're left in an open lobby with little cover wedged against the service counter and cash register. Your best plan might be to go over the counter, through the kitchen and out the back door.
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Old January 9, 2018, 09:38 AM   #13
stonewall50
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If you are capable over overcoming your opponent at contact distance without a firearm I do not see what you would gain by introducing one.


If I’m winning? I won’t be introducing a weapon.


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Old January 10, 2018, 09:08 PM   #14
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I once read a post (on another site) by a guy who claimed to have trained himself to react to any noise behind him by drawing his gun, turning and firing automatically without thinking, because "they keep trying to sneak up on me." I support the right to bear arms, but I don't want to be in the same county as that nutcase. I suggest simply keeping alert and not overthinking (and overreacting to) hypothetical situations.

Jim
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Old January 11, 2018, 08:26 AM   #15
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What is often neglected in "force on force" training, it training not to shoot.

If I'm in such a place which is being robbed. I'm not going to interfer as along as no one is getting hurt.

If I see someone running out of my my house with my TV (though I may be justified in shooting to stop), I'm calling the insurance company.

If I'm at a restruant, or gas station, and some one demands my wallet, I'm going to give it to him, then call the Bank and cancil all my cards.

Justifacation doesnt mean you should act. You can be totally justified in using deadly force. No charges, no jail time, no suit. No Problem...Right.

Wrong, its going to haunt you the rest of your life, No matter how justified, if you're human, you're going to pay.

I'm not saying not to be prepared to protect yourself or your loved ones. I'm saying property items arent worth nightmares.

Heck I've paid a ton in insurance payments. I doubt any bandit will take from me the value I've paid to insurance companies.

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Quote:
Pick your martial art, boxing, or whatever contact "fighting" sport you want. Some are going to be better than others but all of them are going to be better than nothing. Practice several times a week if possible or at least once a week. It will help keep you in shape to a degree and help you be more competent than most people.
I'm no longer a 20 year old Airborne Infantry soldier with the reflexes of a cat.

I'm a 70 year old washed up paratrooper, with bad lungs and a ticker thats questionable. Practicing such activities would get be arrested for noise complaints just from my joints screaming.

Its much easier to take a sport I enjoy, that doesn't require phyical activity, that I can also use to protect my old bones and my family. (Lives not property).

Quote:
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent to the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun be your constant companion of your walks.

Thomas Jefferson Letter to Peter Carr 1785.
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Old January 11, 2018, 08:50 PM   #16
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Justifacation doesnt mean you should act. You can be totally justified in using deadly force. No charges, no jail time, no suit. No Problem...Right.

Wrong, its going to haunt you the rest of your life, No matter how justified, if you're human, you're going to pay.
And this is the truth.
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Old January 17, 2018, 10:01 PM   #17
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What is often neglected in "force on force" training, it training not to shoot.

If I'm in such a place which is being robbed. I'm not going to interfer as along as no one is getting hurt.

If I see someone running out of my my house with my TV (though I may be justified in shooting to stop), I'm calling the insurance company.

If I'm at a restruant, or gas station, and some one demands my wallet, I'm going to give it to him, then call the Bank and cancil all my cards.

Justifacation doesnt mean you should act. You can be totally justified in using deadly force. No charges, no jail time, no suit. No Problem...Right.

Wrong, its going to haunt you the rest of your life, No matter how justified, if you're human, you're going to pay.

I'm not saying not to be prepared to protect yourself or your loved ones. I'm saying property items arent worth nightmares.

Heck I've paid a ton in insurance payments. I doubt any bandit will take from me the value I've paid to insurance companies.
Amen !
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Old January 17, 2018, 11:28 PM   #18
johnwilliamson062
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As above.
If I am at little Caesars and they get robbed I am leaving with all my ammo in unfired condition and a good story. Assuming things don't escalate to violence by others actions.
Don't expect a thank you from the store owner if you do get involved.
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Old January 17, 2018, 11:59 PM   #19
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The only way that I get involved is if they threaten ME or MINE...otherwise, I am just trying to make it back to my vehicle.

If I wanted to intervene in robberies and such, I would have been a cop.
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Old January 18, 2018, 11:02 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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What is often neglected in "force on force" training, it training not to shoot.
That's not true in all cases. Having done quite a bit of that - the good trainers specifically run scenarios with no shoots as the solution, deescalation and the like. I agree that some FOFs become paintball. That is certainly the case when folks design their own. A good one has a plan that involves various action contingencies and SOs who guide the action to avoid such.
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Old January 18, 2018, 11:50 PM   #21
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Even when the goal is only to protect yourself or your loved ones, too much private training is concentrated on HOW to shoot, rather than WHEN and WHEN NOT to shoot. We may have a theoretical right to self-defense, but it can soon be impossible to exercise that right if a few trigger-happy clowns decide to play cop and shoot at anything moving, thinking it is self defense.

Jim
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Old January 19, 2018, 11:07 AM   #22
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At the old NTI, not shooting was integral part of the FOF. The level of provocation, target ID was all carefully planned. I recall clearly on one excercise my partner being quite upset when he 'shot' his son who was hiding in the shower.

At Karl Rehn's, I had to talk my way out of an enraged customer at a simulated FedEx store.

I know being a shooting commando sells for some folks who get mad if they don't send rounds into a bad guy dummy. However, good training is out there.
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Old January 19, 2018, 02:37 PM   #23
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Force on force training USED to be called “shoot/dont shoot” training. Some current trainers are more concerned with round count in their courses then giving the students an education in fighting with their minds.
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