The Dangers of Traffic Stops for Concealed Carriers - Minnesota Incident

[Lohman446]

The problem with that is seeing how easily some seem to be spooked i would be concerned that would be enough for some officers to start shooting.

This is not something that I have fully thought out because it really just occurred to me to think about. Not to make this a race thing but if there is a victimized race here I am not it. I would expect it would be a dramatic failure of training for an officer to shoot at a fleeing car after a traffic stop.

[TXAZ]

Let me say this a different way: It's in your interest to not get shot, regardless of what you have or have not done. The best way to do that, is to follow directions exactly, without any quick moves. If you are given contradictory directions or don't understand, then ask which the officer wants you to do first.

Whether or not the police are under siege, it can be a scary journey from the squad car to the driver side door. The officer may have just fought off a combative subject, and the fact is the adrenaline continues to pump for some time after. Maybe that's a bad luck for you, but don't give them an opportunity to do their "NN dance" on you as a way to vent frustration. And I've never been a cop but rode with enough of them as a senior manager at a large police organization to realize it's a job I couldn't do.

There are a lot of uber Type-A personalities in policing that might better be suited to the SWAT team or just outside policing. I've met officers that fright at at an unknown noise and should be working elsewhere, an unfortunately met officer that openly expressed a desire to (commit a serious felony) against someone they didn't like. Luckily, the latter is no longer employed as an officer.
But quite frankly, there are a majority of officers that are incredible public servants that do the right thing, and want to go home to their families and want you to do the same.

[Lohman446]

But quite frankly, there are a majority of officers that are incredible public servants that do the right thing, and want to go home to their families and want you to do the same.

I think this is a vital piece of the narrative that gets lost sometimes.

[Ton]

Yes, it's a felony.

Training and it made clear to police officers that if they get it wrong they will be going to jail.

Training in what? That this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMxRTWwcWrs
or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGNv5WVZDg or this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...m-veteran.html

can't and won't happen on a traffic stop? That everybody's word should be taken at face value?

If a police officer approaches with a gun drawn, there is clearly a reason. Never assume you know the reason for the stop. Maybe dirtbag joe just switched your license plate with the license plate of the vehicle he just stole while you were in the grocery store shopping. Maybe a guy with the same basic profile as you and driving the same car as you just robbed the gas station down the street.

If you feel that the way you were treated or approached is out of line, call internal affairs and report it after the fact. Attempting to deal with the problem during the stop is a fast way to get somebody hurt.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I have said several times before on this forum that the time and place to think about where you keep your wallet/ID in relation to your gun is NOW rather than when the officer is walking up to the back of your car and you think "Oh crap... my gun... my wallet..."

For anyone who has friends who are police officers, ASK THEM how they and their fellow officers prefer you to behave when you get pulled over.

For those who don't have such friends, and even those who do, I highly recommend the book "A Speeder's Guide to Avoiding Tickets", written by a retired NY State Trooper. This is NOT, I say again, NOT for avoiding tickets, but for the valuable information it contains about an officers mindset during a traffic stop.

In general, the only moving about you want to do when you're pulled over and prior to the officers arrival at your window is enough to turn on your interior lights if it's night (which helps the officer see inside your car and sends an unmistakable message that you're trying to be helpful and courteous), turn off your radio, turn off your ignition, put your window down and put your hands on the wheel, relaxed. I personally keep my palms out so I'm not gripping the wheel. After the officer arrives at your window, be polite, be respectful, and DO NOT MOVE unless you are asked to do so AND explain what you are doing and why.

For example:
Officer: "License and registration, please"

You: "Certainly officer. My license is in my back right pocket and the registration is in the glove box. Let me get those for you."

Then move SLOWLY and deliberately and only do EXACTLY as you stated, or exactly according to their instructions.

[Lohman446]

If a police officer approaches with a gun drawn, there is clearly a reason

I noted earlier that TXAZ was right. The majority (the VAST majority) of police officers want to do the job, have everyone go home at night, and go home themselves.

However blanket statements such as this that defend an officer even in the hypothetical don't always make this clear. You have effectively made the point that if an officer drew a gun "well there must have been a reason" If there can not be a situation where the officer is in the wrong in drawing his or her gun there can be no meaningful conversation about errors.

[Tom Servo]

Two concerns spring to mind. The first is that we don't know the full situation. We have the video of the aftermath, but we don't know what led to the shooting. We only have the word of the passenger, who may not be telling the whole or correct story.

Second, I echo what many have said. I started carrying when CCW was still a new phenomenon in many places. We were trained not to do anything that might spook an officer during a traffic stop.

Case in point: a friend of mine was in law enforcement in Florida in the early 1990's. He pulled over a driver for rolling through a red light. The driver was armed and licensed. As the officer approached the car, he saw the driver holding a pistol between his legs and racking the slide.

He came a hair's breadth from killing that driver. The actual story? The driver thought the officer might want to take possession of the gun, so he was clearing it.

So, yeah. If pulled over (which doesn't happen often if we're responsible drivers, right?), I have relevant identification out, my interior lights on, and my hands in plain view. I inform the officer I have a pistol (not "I have a gun") and ask him how he'd like to proceed. I've only been pulled over once while carrying, and the officer simply thanked my and asked me not to handle the weapon for the duration of the stop.

[Ton]

However blanket statements such as this that defend an officer even in the hypothetical don't always make this clear. You have effectively made the point that if an officer drew a gun "well there must have been a reason" If there can not be a situation where the officer is in the wrong in drawing his or her gun there can be no meaningful conversation about errors.

I'm not saying that an officer cannot be wrong. I am saying that unless he is seriously mentally ill, an officer isn't just going to pull his gun out on a traffic stop because he likes the way it feels in his hand.

The point is that in that moment, there will be absolutely no way for you to know why the officer is approaching you with a gun drawn. And just saying "Well I haven't done anything to warrant this, so I'm going to leave" is going to earn you some jail time at the very least.

[Lohman446]

I think how you inform the officer is important as well. My rehearsed (I think I used it twice some time ago) statement was always "I have a concealed carry permit and am carrying a firearm" No gun word. I live in a small town, am a member of the majority population, and have a well respected last name (thanks Grandpa, Dad, Uncles). I don't actually see a strong chance of having any issues.

[zincwarrior]

What i don't get is why do police in America approach a traffic stop hyped up gun drawn, its asking for this type of incident to happen. The police here have more reason to be wary stopping a car than in America but i have never seen them approaching a car gun draw.

Quote:
I place my hands on the steering wheel immediately. I do not reach for my paper work. I sit with my hands on the wheel until the officer can visibly see them. I then inform the officer that I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and that I am armed.
Its a bad situation when you have to fear being shot at a traffic stop, just because you have a firearm does not give the police the right to shoot you.

Lets be real here, this can happen regardless of whether you are armed. The advice of keeping both hands on the wheel with all needed docs already in hand are taught by many parents to their children as I have done.

[manta49]

I have relevant identification out, my interior lights on, and my hands in plain view. I inform the officer I have a pistol (not "I have a gun") and ask him how he'd like to proceed. I've only been pulled over once while carrying, and the officer simply thanked my and asked me not to handle the weapon for the duration of the stop

Should you have to do that for fear of being shot by the police. I know here if i get stopped i can do all the sudden movements i want not comply with the officers instructions tell him where to go.( not that i would ) And have no fear or concern that i will be shot.

Training in what? That this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMxRTWwcWrs
or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGNv5WVZDg or this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...m-veteran.html

Training in not overacting, as i posted the police here have more reason to be wary of traffic stops than in America, but i have never seen a police officer approach a car with hand on firearm in the holster or drawn out of holster. Having said that there will always be at least two or more officers here they never patrol alone.

[zincwarrior]

Should you have to do that for fear of being shot by the police. I know here if i get stopped i can do all the sudden movements i want not comply with the officers instructions tell him where to go.( not that i would ) And have no fear or concern that i will be shot.

Respectfully, should is utterly irrelevant. There is the way things ought to be and the way things are.

[tony pasley]

My SOP is to carry DL, CCW, Insurance, and registration I a case in my shirt pocket and it is in my hand before I stop. Pull to a safe spot turn off engine with window down about 2 ". Hands in clear view.
Don't feel something is right I call 911 or *HP and verify while driving slow with flashers on asking dispatch to explain I am verifying the Officer and finding a safe place to stop for both of us. Only had to do the last but the Officer Understood and all was good.

I do inform required or not just to be safe from nervous Nellies.

[manta49]

Respectfully, should is utterly irrelevant. There is the way things ought to be and the way things are.

We would not accept that type of behaviour by the police here, if that was the way things were it would be changed.

[zincwarrior]

You're in Northern Ireland correct? Not seeing how this relates as I do not believe you are allowed access to pistols much less CC or car carry (or inversely as police dealing with such or more importantly the average machine gun toting cartel member). Its a different environment.


Again, to the point what is acceptable or not is not relevant to real world advice on how to act. Incorrect actions can lead to your death on this subject.

[manta49]

You're in Northern Ireland correct? Not seeing how this relates as I do not believe you are allowed access to pistols much less CC or car carry (or inversely as police dealing with such or more importantly the average machine gun toting cartel member). Its a different environment.

I have 4 handguns and thousands of civilians carry handguns civilians for self defence in this part of the UK. And as i have posted the police have every reason to be wary when approaching cars etc all police cars have to be armoured.

“Northern Ireland has been the most dangerous place in the world to be a police officer.

According to Interpol figures, the risk factor in 1983 was twice as high as in El Salvador, the second most dangerous.

[DavidAGO]

This may be partly hijacking the thread, but why would a person who is carrying legally not go ahead and inform the officer that he was? I realize in some states you do not have to inform, In Arkansas you do. but even if I do not have to I would tell the officer I am carrying. Is there any good reason you should not inform the officer even if you do not legally have to?

David

[2damnold4this]

I think it's a good idea to inform an officer you don't personally know that you are carrying regardless of any legal requirement. I also think that some officers might issue confusing or contradictory commands. While I will obey any lawful command from an officer, I think it's ok to ask for clarification.

Officer: May I see your ID?
Me without moving my hands from the wheel: Yes. I need to tell you that I have a concealed carry permit and I am carrying a firearm. How would you like to proceed?

[FireForged]

I will have my wallet in my hand well before he ever comes to my window. I am not going to reach for anything during a traffic stop.

[FITASC]

For anyone who has friends who are police officers, ASK THEM how they and their fellow officers prefer you to behave when you get pulled over.

Having a LEO as a father, his advice (from decades ago) was to get out of the car, walk to the rear fender, and stand quietly with your hands where the officer can see them; especially if you are the only one in the car.

This may be partly hijacking the thread, but why would a person who is carrying legally not go ahead and inform the officer that he was?

Are you a bad guy going to shoot a cop? Why then introduce an extra fear for the cop when it is totally unnecessary?

[artsmom]

As a person with three relatives as peace officers and concerned about THEIR safety, those not cut out for the job need to be proactively and aggressively purged.

This shooting will not help matters.

[K_Mac]

Its been a lot of years since I was stopped but I think if I noticed an officer approaching the car with the gun drawn I would deem it in everyone's best interest to end that traffic stop and leave (while calling 911 to report the situation). Am I drastically out of line on that issue?

I am not a police officer. I do know several well. If a cop has his gun drawn while approaching my car for a traffic stop, I know that he thinks I am a serious threat. I am not, but that is not important in that moment. The last thing in the world to do in this spot is to try to drive away. He then concludeds that as a sworn officer he has a duty to stop a fleeing felon. I am not, but again in that moment, it does not matter. I would be polite and do exactly as told. I would not move a finger until told to do so, at which point I would inform him that I have a CCL and am carrying a pistol AIWB and wait for instructions. There will be plenty of time to take legal action if necessary, after the dust has cleared.

We would not accept that type of behaviour by the police here, if that was the way things were it would be changed.

With all due respect, that sort of simple self-righteous comment really isn't appreciated. There are many here who would use the UK or Europe as an example of how we should be governed. Most of us on this board would strongly disagree. Yes, we have some problems that need attention, just like everywhere else in the world...

[Tom Servo]

Having a LEO as a father, his advice (from decades ago) was to get out of the car, walk to the rear fender, and stand quietly with your hands where the officer can see them

That pretty much went by the wayside in the 1990s. They prefer you remain in the car now.

Why then introduce an extra fear for the cop when it is totally unnecessary?

In a normal interaction, most LEO's appreciate being told, so long as it's done in a manner that's not intimidating.

(There's a difference between "I have a gun" and "I have a holstered pistol on my right hip and I'm licensed to carry.")

That said, there are several factors in this incident that were anything but normal.

[cjwils]

According to this link, which quotes the girlfriend, the dead man said he had a firearm on him, but did not say he was licensed to carry. The girlfriend then yelled that he was licensed to carry. Maybe things would have turned out differently if he had started by saying he was licensed to carry, and then said he had a firearm. It might have also helped if the girlfriend had not felt that she needed to yell.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...day_night.html

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Two concerns spring to mind. The first is that we don't know the full situation. We have the video of the aftermath, but we don't know what led to the shooting. We only have the word of the passenger, who may not be telling the whole or correct story....

And the first concern is enough to make any meaningful discussion of the incident impossible.