Need a Remington Rolling Block expert

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2020, 11:49 AM

I have a carbine from the Egyptian contract. The rifle appears in great shape. I have shot it a coupla times successfully.

But I noticed a feature on this rifle that is a bit troubling.

It is entirely possible that this behavior has been present in the rifle from the beginning. It is entirely possible that nothing is wrong with the rifle. I just need a RRB smart guy to tell me so.

At full cock, the rolling block can be opened easily for loading.

But

Once the cartridge is placed in the breach and the breach block is closed, the breach block ought to lock in place. But it doesn't. I go to full cock. Load the cartridge. Close the breach. but then I can still open the breach.

This means that the only thing holding the breach closed upon discharge is the hammer. I must admit that it is nice and tight. The hammer is substantial. No way it is coming open. It just seems as though the breach block should snap in place when the rifle is in battery.

I have had the rifle apart and can find nothing wrong with internals.

From this description, does it appear that the rifle is working properly?

Centurion · May 25, 2020, 12:55 PM

Hi! It is possible for you to open the breech at half cock? You can try it without chambering any case.

Centurion · May 25, 2020, 12:58 PM

If the breech remains closed and cannot be opened at half cock, and also when the hammer is down on the firing pin, then your RRB is working properly.

Centurion · May 25, 2020, 01:13 PM

You can see a video on how this action must function from youtube:

https://youtu.be/mCVWIOwKZZw

Centurion · May 25, 2020, 01:25 PM

As you may see at the attached picture, even at half cock the action must remain closed. And the same when you shoot it and the hammer is touching the firing pin.

**44 AMP** · May 25, 2020, 02:05 PM

The "traditional" Rolling Block action does NOT lock shut. The rolling block is held shut during firing by the weight (inertia) of the block, and the hammer & spring tension, and the eccentric cam the block rotates on.

They don't lock shut in the way a falling block does. They are "held shut" not "locked closed" when the hammer falls.

hope this helps

They are (in proper working order) strong enough for the pressures of their original chamberings but don't have much of a strength margin beyond that. NOT suitable for high pressures.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2020, 05:33 PM

And thanks a heck of a lot.

Nothing wrong wif dis rifle.

Scorch · May 25, 2020, 07:19 PM

Quote:

This means that the only thing holding the breach closed upon discharge is the hammer.

That is correct. The hammer holds the breech closed when fired.

mehavey · May 25, 2020, 07:30 PM

Yup -- normal design function
Scary at first, but then you realize/begin to appreciate to breathtakingly-elegant simplicity of the design.)

Centurion · May 25, 2020, 08:21 PM

Its extremely simple and robust design is for me much much better than the sharps or trapdoor ones, and much faster to operate.

Remember that after the civil war the trapdoor was adopted because it was just a modification of the existing issued rifle and the sharps was the only available rifle that any civilian could buy because the vast majority of remingtons were being exported. That is the main reason behind the higher popularity for the trapdoor or the sharps IMHO.

They fought the Great War aside many repeating rifles, its rate of fire per minute being higher than that of the sharps or trapdoors.

HiBC · May 26, 2020, 08:13 AM

Unless the breech is closed,it blocks the hammer from falling. So you are not going to fire from an unlocked breech block, with one notable possiblity.(To be aware of) If the firing pin is stuck forward,acting as a fixed firing pin.
So it behooves you to practice reasonable maintnance on your breech block.

Once the hammer begins to fall,the breech is not going to open.

There is a provision for some operating clearance between the breech block and hammer during hammer fall,but its arranged that the clearance closed to zero in the last of the hammer fall.Its a cam thing.

There are early rolling blocks that are less strong,to be used with black powder only.Look it up,look at pictures,but they are identified by a step between the receiver side and the upper half of the recever ring.

The "smokeless" receivers have no step,and have thicker steel over the top of the receiver ring.

While the RB is called a "strong" action,thats relative to late 19th century "strong"

I'm NOT a RB "expert". I simply have a LITTLE bit of experience with them.

Treat them as the late 1800's /turn of the century metallurgy and technology they are,and have fun!! I would encourage shooting glasses.

Jim Watson · May 26, 2020, 10:18 AM

Not to be alarmist, you can screw up anything, but there have been cases of Rolling Blocks that have been tinkered with and a camming engagement produced between breechblock and hammer. A rifle so deformed will cam open when fired. Rare but not impossible.

The Rolling Block is a strong action by black powder standards. It made the transition to smokeless and was considered adequate for 7mm Mauser, 8mm Lebel, and .30-40 Krag that I know of.
But I read an article on demolished Rolling Blocks. A blown case head or a wrong powder load letting gas into the boxy receiver will blow it harder than a Trapdoor.

Scorch · May 28, 2020, 01:36 AM

As stated, the Rolling Block was relatively strong by the standards of the time. The Rolling Block was famous as "the gun that fires both ways", i.e. if modified by putting a lighter hammer spring in it, the firing pin could force the hammer back when the gun was fired and the breech would open under pressure. Simple solution, don't put a lighter hammer spring on it, I know. But the factory hammer spring was tremendous, and a lot of target shooters in the late 19th Century would reduce the strength of the hammer spring so it could be cocked easier. You can google it and find hours of entertaining reading about it.

mehavey · May 28, 2020, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

...to be used with black powder only . . . look at pictures . . . they are identified
by a step between the receiver side and the upper half of the receiver ring.

Had not heard/known that before. Good info to have tucked away.

HiBC · May 28, 2020, 07:48 AM

Mehavy,your pic in post #9 shows the step for a black powder only action.

With the later,stronger(relatively) receiever,there is additional steel over the top of rhe receiver ring which eliminates the step The ones I'm talking about are mostly military rifles.

There is also a sporting rifle version,where the top half of the receiver ring is profiles octagon.

I think those can be found in two varieties. The real ones and the fake ones made by modifying a military.

As I understand it ( I'm NOT an expert) converting one to octagon cuts the strength of the case hardening off. At best,I'd considr a modified one black powder only.

IMO,we all must be thinking in terms of the unknowns regarding steel,heat treat,and history with 100 plus year old receivers.

From my non-expert opinion,I'd feel OK shooting a smokeless version rifle that is well fitted and in good shape ,up to the same pressures I'd trust a single locking lug,similar vintage steel and heat treat Krag in 30-40.

Which is about 40,000 psi and I would not hot rod it.I might shoot for 36,000

Once again,I'm NOT an expert,and those limits are for MY face,based on my illusions.
You make your own decisions for your face,and kindly leave me out of it!

Doc Hoy · May 29, 2020, 03:56 PM

A while ago I read about the Egyptian models. Don't recall much about it. This is a carbine and does not appear to have been cut down from a rifle. The barrel is .45-70.

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 04:15 PM

I would guess it was born a 43 Egyptian. If it is truly a 45-70,that would be a popular and practical choice for a rebarrel. Ods are,it has been rebarreled.

IMO,thats a good thing. I don't know where to buy a box of 43 Egyptian.

I would expect its safe with trapdoor loads. I'd have to do research to refresh my memory,I just do not recall if its up to 1886 Win loads. I might stop short of those.
Its defintely NOT Ok for Ruger single shot or Siamese Mauser level loads.

You might enjoy exploring Black Powder Cartridge loads, See Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles" or something like that. Good book!

mehavey · May 29, 2020, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

With the later, stronger(relatively) receiever,there is additional steel over
the top of the receiver ring which eliminates the step The ones I'm talking
about are mostly military rifles.

My Bodine is of the "strong" receiver designs.... I just never knew of the design change.

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 07:26 PM

Cool. A Bodine is a high quality modern repro made in Texas,IIRC.

None of the 100 year old questionable stuff. I was talking about originals

Doc Hoy · May 29, 2020, 08:37 PM

To HiBC,

Yes...I am almost certain is it is a rebarrel. Many of the rifles intended for Egypt found their way into France but went there in the .43 Egyptian cartridge. I think this caliber is very similar to .43 Spanish but I don't know.

When I acquired this rifle I had my eye on a different n which was in .43 Egyptian. I looked into reloading the cartridge and the more I looked, the more frightened I became. .348 converswions and such.

While the original contract was for 60,000 arms, Eventually, almost a quarter million were used in France (Remington Rolling Block. retrieved 5/29/20). I do not know if these rifles were provided by Egypt (unlikely) or diverted to France before delivery.

The receiver is said by some authors to be strong enough for 1880s vintage smokeless loads. I do not intend to put it to that use, since I only load BP in .45-70 rounds.

To Mehavey,

Roger, out.

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 09:18 PM

Doc Hoy
Along with Mike Venturino's book,which I highly recommend,there is another guy who,it seems,pretty much dedicated the latter part of his life to learning everything there is to know about shooting and reloading black powder 45-70 in a rolling block....And writing books about it. He wrote several.

His name is Paul Matthews. Check him out.

Doc Hoy · May 30, 2020, 03:56 PM

When a person can hit two gun shows in one day, that person has to think...."I must be living right."

Went to the show in Port Charlotte and it was a bust.

Came home from the Gun show in Englewood, FL with an 1873 Remington Rolling block in .32. Photos after supper.

I will be peppering you with questions on that rifle.

Tnx,

Jim Watson · May 30, 2020, 04:12 PM

The only Rolling Block that Flayderman puts "1873" on is the No 2.

Do you know if it is .32 rimfire or centerfire?

Doc Hoy · May 30, 2020, 06:43 PM

It is a model 2. Center fire.

Serial number is 979X.

Photos soon. I promise.

Rifle is in relatively good shape cosmetically and operationally. Has a nice patina but little original finish.

Butt stock was repaired in two places. Good quality repair and no damage that compromises strength of the stock.

Octagon barrel is 26 inches in length.

Most of the screw heads show signs of hogging with the wrong size or shape screw driver.

Bore is okay but needs cleaning.

Rifle is complete with no missing or broken parts.

Doc Hoy · May 31, 2020, 08:21 AM

Here are the photos I promised

May 25, 2020, 11:49 AM	#1
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Need a Remington Rolling Block expert I have a carbine from the Egyptian contract. The rifle appears in great shape. I have shot it a coupla times successfully. But I noticed a feature on this rifle that is a bit troubling. It is entirely possible that this behavior has been present in the rifle from the beginning. It is entirely possible that nothing is wrong with the rifle. I just need a RRB smart guy to tell me so. At full cock, the rolling block can be opened easily for loading. But Once the cartridge is placed in the breach and the breach block is closed, the breach block ought to lock in place. But it doesn't. I go to full cock. Load the cartridge. Close the breach. but then I can still open the breach. This means that the only thing holding the breach closed upon discharge is the hammer. I must admit that it is nice and tight. The hammer is substantial. No way it is coming open. It just seems as though the breach block should snap in place when the rifle is in battery. I have had the rifle apart and can find nothing wrong with internals. From this description, does it appear that the rifle is working properly? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 25, 2020, 12:58 PM	#3
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	If the breech remains closed and cannot be opened at half cock, and also when the hammer is down on the firing pin, then your RRB is working properly. Last edited by Centurion; May 25, 2020 at 01:10 PM.

May 25, 2020, 02:05 PM	#6
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	The "traditional" Rolling Block action does NOT lock shut. The rolling block is held shut during firing by the weight (inertia) of the block, and the hammer & spring tension, and the eccentric cam the block rotates on. They don't lock shut in the way a falling block does. They are "held shut" not "locked closed" when the hammer falls. hope this helps They are (in proper working order) strong enough for the pressures of their original chamberings but don't have much of a strength margin beyond that. NOT suitable for high pressures. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 25, 2020, 05:33 PM	#7
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Happy memorial day to all. And thanks a heck of a lot. Nothing wrong wif dis rifle. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 25, 2020, 08:21 PM	#10
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Its extremely simple and robust design is for me much much better than the sharps or trapdoor ones, and much faster to operate. Remember that after the civil war the trapdoor was adopted because it was just a modification of the existing issued rifle and the sharps was the only available rifle that any civilian could buy because the vast majority of remingtons were being exported. That is the main reason behind the higher popularity for the trapdoor or the sharps IMHO. They fought the Great War aside many repeating rifles, its rate of fire per minute being higher than that of the sharps or trapdoors. Last edited by Centurion; May 25, 2020 at 08:32 PM.

May 25, 2020, 12:55 PM	#2
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Hi! It is possible for you to open the breech at half cock? You can try it without chambering any case.

May 25, 2020, 01:13 PM	#4
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	You can see a video on how this action must function from youtube: https://youtu.be/mCVWIOwKZZw

May 25, 2020, 07:30 PM	#9
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Yup -- normal design function Scary at first, but then you realize/begin to appreciate to breathtakingly-elegant simplicity of the design.) Last edited by mehavey; May 25, 2020 at 07:46 PM.

May 26, 2020, 08:13 AM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Unless the breech is closed,it blocks the hammer from falling. So you are not going to fire from an unlocked breech block, with one notable possiblity.(To be aware of) If the firing pin is stuck forward,acting as a fixed firing pin. So it behooves you to practice reasonable maintnance on your breech block. Once the hammer begins to fall,the breech is not going to open. There is a provision for some operating clearance between the breech block and hammer during hammer fall,but its arranged that the clearance closed to zero in the last of the hammer fall.Its a cam thing. There are early rolling blocks that are less strong,to be used with black powder only.Look it up,look at pictures,but they are identified by a step between the receiver side and the upper half of the recever ring. The "smokeless" receivers have no step,and have thicker steel over the top of the receiver ring. While the RB is called a "strong" action,thats relative to late 19th century "strong" I'm NOT a RB "expert". I simply have a LITTLE bit of experience with them. Treat them as the late 1800's /turn of the century metallurgy and technology they are,and have fun!! I would encourage shooting glasses.

May 26, 2020, 10:18 AM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Not to be alarmist, you can screw up anything, but there have been cases of Rolling Blocks that have been tinkered with and a camming engagement produced between breechblock and hammer. A rifle so deformed will cam open when fired. Rare but not impossible. The Rolling Block is a strong action by black powder standards. It made the transition to smokeless and was considered adequate for 7mm Mauser, 8mm Lebel, and .30-40 Krag that I know of. But I read an article on demolished Rolling Blocks. A blown case head or a wrong powder load letting gas into the boxy receiver will blow it harder than a Trapdoor.

May 28, 2020, 01:36 AM	#13
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	As stated, the Rolling Block was relatively strong by the standards of the time. The Rolling Block was famous as "the gun that fires both ways", i.e. if modified by putting a lighter hammer spring in it, the firing pin could force the hammer back when the gun was fired and the breech would open under pressure. Simple solution, don't put a lighter hammer spring on it, I know. But the factory hammer spring was tremendous, and a lot of target shooters in the late 19th Century would reduce the strength of the hammer spring so it could be cocked easier. You can google it and find hours of entertaining reading about it. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

May 28, 2020, 07:48 AM	#15
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Mehavy,your pic in post #9 shows the step for a black powder only action. With the later,stronger(relatively) receiever,there is additional steel over the top of rhe receiver ring which eliminates the step The ones I'm talking about are mostly military rifles. There is also a sporting rifle version,where the top half of the receiver ring is profiles octagon. I think those can be found in two varieties. The real ones and the fake ones made by modifying a military. As I understand it ( I'm NOT an expert) converting one to octagon cuts the strength of the case hardening off. At best,I'd considr a modified one black powder only. IMO,we all must be thinking in terms of the unknowns regarding steel,heat treat,and history with 100 plus year old receivers. From my non-expert opinion,I'd feel OK shooting a smokeless version rifle that is well fitted and in good shape ,up to the same pressures I'd trust a single locking lug,similar vintage steel and heat treat Krag in 30-40. Which is about 40,000 psi and I would not hot rod it.I might shoot for 36,000 Once again,I'm NOT an expert,and those limits are for MY face,based on my illusions. You make your own decisions for your face,and kindly leave me out of it!

May 29, 2020, 03:56 PM	#16
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	A while ago I read about the Egyptian models. Don't recall much about it. This is a carbine and does not appear to have been cut down from a rifle. The barrel is .45-70. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 29, 2020, 04:15 PM	#17
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I would guess it was born a 43 Egyptian. If it is truly a 45-70,that would be a popular and practical choice for a rebarrel. Ods are,it has been rebarreled. IMO,thats a good thing. I don't know where to buy a box of 43 Egyptian. I would expect its safe with trapdoor loads. I'd have to do research to refresh my memory,I just do not recall if its up to 1886 Win loads. I might stop short of those. Its defintely NOT Ok for Ruger single shot or Siamese Mauser level loads. You might enjoy exploring Black Powder Cartridge loads, See Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles" or something like that. Good book!

May 29, 2020, 07:26 PM	#19
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Cool. A Bodine is a high quality modern repro made in Texas,IIRC. None of the 100 year old questionable stuff. I was talking about originals

May 29, 2020, 08:37 PM	#20
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Coupla responses. To HiBC, Yes...I am almost certain is it is a rebarrel. Many of the rifles intended for Egypt found their way into France but went there in the .43 Egyptian cartridge. I think this caliber is very similar to .43 Spanish but I don't know. When I acquired this rifle I had my eye on a different n which was in .43 Egyptian. I looked into reloading the cartridge and the more I looked, the more frightened I became. .348 converswions and such. While the original contract was for 60,000 arms, Eventually, almost a quarter million were used in France (Remington Rolling Block. retrieved 5/29/20). I do not know if these rifles were provided by Egypt (unlikely) or diverted to France before delivery. The receiver is said by some authors to be strong enough for 1880s vintage smokeless loads. I do not intend to put it to that use, since I only load BP in .45-70 rounds. To Mehavey, Roger, out. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 29, 2020, 09:18 PM	#21
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Doc Hoy Along with Mike Venturino's book,which I highly recommend,there is another guy who,it seems,pretty much dedicated the latter part of his life to learning everything there is to know about shooting and reloading black powder 45-70 in a rolling block....And writing books about it. He wrote several. His name is Paul Matthews. Check him out.

May 30, 2020, 03:56 PM	#22
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Came home with a new toy When a person can hit two gun shows in one day, that person has to think...."I must be living right." Went to the show in Port Charlotte and it was a bust. Came home from the Gun show in Englewood, FL with an 1873 Remington Rolling block in .32. Photos after supper. I will be peppering you with questions on that rifle. Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 30, 2020, 04:12 PM	#23
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	The only Rolling Block that Flayderman puts "1873" on is the No 2. Do you know if it is .32 rimfire or centerfire?

May 30, 2020, 06:43 PM	#24
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	It is marked .32 on the bottom land of the barrel It is a model 2. Center fire. Serial number is 979X. Photos soon. I promise. Rifle is in relatively good shape cosmetically and operationally. Has a nice patina but little original finish. Butt stock was repaired in two places. Good quality repair and no damage that compromises strength of the stock. Octagon barrel is 26 inches in length. Most of the screw heads show signs of hogging with the wrong size or shape screw driver. Bore is okay but needs cleaning. Rifle is complete with no missing or broken parts. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.