38 Special Full Wadcutter Alliant Unique

[rajbcpa]

I'm not sure I understand wad-cutter projectiles. It seems like they would be at a ballistics dis-advantage to any other type shape.

Are these limited to wheel guns? Will they cycle in an auto-loader?

[twobit]

They are for punching clean cut holes in paper targets with revolvers. That is pretty much it. At paper target range they are just as accurate as any other shaped bullet.

[Sergeant]

In the military, at one time, they were used for guard duty utilizing a revolver, as they punch better holes at close range.

Also S&W made a Model 52 semi auto that would only shoot 38 special full wadcutters for competition shooting.

I like the full wadcutter because its very easy to see the clean cut holes on the target.

[zxcvbob]

• They punch big holes in things; paper, rodents, watermelons, bad guys, etc.
• At close range the aerodynamics doesn't matter.
• They feed OK in revolvers (obviously) but they are slow to load with a speedloader. They also feed OK in a lever-action rifle if you get the overall length just right. (.38 Specials will probably be too short)

[wogpotter]

The load data came from an "all in one loadbook", using the Lyman load tables. Because of that I don't know which edition they were original to. I have several newer manuals, but I keep the "all in one's" for odd components like this.

I know this is old data, but the powder is of a similar vintage, but stored well. Its actually in the old cardboard cylindrical 1 Lb gold & bronze colored containers, but looks & smells normal & theres no clumping of the grains, so I'm trying to find a away to use it rather than waste it. My intention is to load several "lots" of just a few test loads & proceed from there, adjusting as needed.

Just to fill in a little background info:

I’ve been gifted with a large “bucket” of components for reloading .38 Spl & .357 Mag. But most of them don’t really seem to go together, so I’m looking for a safe & reliable way of using the components.

I have:

.38 Spl cases (losta-lotsa)
.357 Mag cases (again lots of them)
All cases are once fired; the original owner was going to get into reloading & saved all his factory brass. That was as far as he got & I think he bought without knowing exactly what he was doing because of all the mis-matched components.

125 Gr Speer Gold Dot HP bullets.
140 Gr Unknown maker FMJ-RN bullets.
125 Gr Hornady XTP HP bullets.
Hard cast (can’t scratch them with a fingernail) lead:
135 Gr SWC’s lubed & sized.
163GR RN.
147 Gr wadcutters (no lube)

Win WSP (not WSP-M) primers. Lots of them also.

A pound of (old but smells/looks fine) Unique.
A pound of (old but smells/looks fine) Bullseye.
Both in the old round cardboard containers.

A pound of “Titegroup” much more current production.

So here is my thought process to maximize the components, please air check me for sanity/safety.

Load the jacketed round in the .357 cases with the Titegroup, work up a load for somewhere round 7.0 grains for 1450FPS, but with standard primers. Adjust as needed for the gold dots, the XTPs & the 140 Gr RN bullets.

Use the Unique and/or as suitable Bullseye for loading the lead cast bullets to about 1,000 FPS in the .357 & about 900 FPS .38 Spl cases. I plan on starting with about 5.5 Gr of Bullseye & 6.5 Gr of the Unique. I intend to work the loads from there using a 6” DW & a chronograph.

[Strafer Gott]

Your proposed loads are in excess of modern max loads by at least 10 percent.
I wouldn't do it. You are into +P+ country. 5 grain loads with a 148gr DEWC are just under 1k fps, about where a lead .357 magnum load starts. And don't forget the lube, or you'll be leading heavy.

[Unclenick]

I think we've pretty much covered the funny load levels and that they do appear in some old data and why.

With the unlubed wadcutters, I'd pick up a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox and treat them like tumble lube bullets. That stuff works fine. More normal target loads are in the 750 fps range, but you can do what you want with them.

Hodgdon's burn rate chart puts Tightgroup right next to Bullseye in burn rate, so you'll probably do better using Unique for approaching magnum pressure loads (you should get more velocity from it at the same peak pressures). QuickLOAD shows Unique getting about 176 fps more velocity at the same peak pressure as Tightgroup in a 10" test barrel, and 146 fps more velocity in a 6" barrel. Keep in mind the Alliant's test barrel is 6", where the Hodgdon test barrel is 10". A proper magnum powder like H110/296 should let you get still another 150 fps out of the same bullet weights.

Also, Tightgroup has a reputation for burning a bit hot, so putting it in heavier loads could put you at a wear and tear and throat erosion disadvantage. For that reason, I'd consign it to target loads. Hodgdon uses it at 2.7-3.3 grains for the wadcutters seated flush in a .38 Special case, and 2.9 to 3.3 grains in the .357 Magnum, though, again, this if for a hollow base wadcutter whose skirt can be blown open by too much muzzle pressure.

[wogpotter]

Your proposed loads are in excess of modern max loads by at least 10 percent.

This just downloaded from the Hodgdon website:
125 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .357" 1.590" 6.8 1425 36,500 CUP 7.5 1497 41,200 CUP

I read a test run of 6.8Gr, 7.0Gr & 7.2Gr as a middle of the road load for the XTP 125 Gr in .357 Mag with a Std primer. Where are you getting the +P+ & 10% over max info from?

I wish I could find some H-110 as I have loads for that already & its my preferred powder. Regrettably I haven't seen a single grain of it here for 6 months so I'm obliged to improvise a bit. I loaded 6 rounds of the 135 Gr SWC's into some .357 brass & I think I'll readjust from there for a plinking .357 load.

I'm quoting .357 loads here BTW, not .38 Spl ones. The intent was to come up with a working .357 lead SWC load at about 1K FPS & download for .38 Spl based on how the .357s related to the data I have. Sorry if I confused the issue.

This was also based on some actual tests I did earlier with factory made 158 Gr SWC's. I loaded several sets & chronographed them at 15 feet with the following results, which seem to bear out the load data I'm working with.

Dan Wesson 15-2 (6") .357 S&W Mag 158 Gr cast SWC AP 3 6.0 Unique CCI 550 997.0
Dan Wesson 15-2 (6") .357 S&W Mag 158 Gr cast SWC AP 3 6.5 Unique CCI 550 1050.0
Dan Wesson 15-2 (6") .357 S&W Mag 158 Gr cast SWC AP 3 7.0 Unique CCI 550 1158.0

It looks like theres enough controversy & conflicting info on the lead SWC's, WC's & RN's in the .38 Spl. that I'll just hold off for now till I can get some definitive info.

[zxcvbob]

I'm quoting .357 loads here BTW, not .38 Spl ones. The intent was to come up with a working .357 lead SWC load at about 1K FPS & download for .38 Spl based on how the .357s related to the data I have. Sorry if I confused the issue.

This was also based on some actual tests I did earlier with factory made 158 Gr SWC's. I loaded several sets & chronographed them at 15 feet with the following results, which seem to bear out the load data I'm working with.

I thought we were talking about double-ended (or bevel base) cast wadcutters. Not semi-wadcutters. The big difference is in how deeply they are seated. Wadcutter target loads are not necessarily low-pressure loads.

[Unclenick]

The thread is wandering a bit off the OP's question. Also no question that the published data is all over the map on some of these combinations, and that doesn't help. You can't readily distinguish a load maximum intended to prevent overpressure from one intended to prevent blowing a hollow base skirt open, especially where the manual doesn't separate the two wadcutter types.

[Sergeant]

Original question was on reloading a cast solid base full wad cutter in a 38 spcl using Alliant Unique powder.

[Unclenick]

It wandered because folks picked up on the short range practice purpose you mentioned in your second post, so they were contributing alternatives for that. It's possibly time for a separate thread on velocity consistency, though. It's a problem with lighter loads for several reasons.

[wogpotter]

Sorry about the wandering, it kind of led on from my post regarding the full wadcutters I had aquired.

[Sergeant]

Sorry about contributing to the wondering as well. However, the postings have brought up some other factors to consider as well when loading a DEWC in a 38 Spcl. I never thought much about the uniqueness of loading so deep. Plan to go to the range either tomorrow or Saturday to test the loads.