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Old January 23, 2022, 07:22 PM   #26
Shadow9mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
reminds me of the old doctor joke :

Patient - Doc it hurts when I do this
Doctor - stop doing that then


A lot of government snipers and tactical rifle shooters only clean only when accuracy begins to drop off. They may go several hundred rounds

A lot of benchrest shooter clean ever 15 to 20 rounds.

I clean every 80 - 125

you need to find what works for you
I have also heard of law enforcement cleaning after shooting, then firing a few fouling shots.
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Old January 23, 2022, 09:29 PM   #27
Bart B.
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Originally Posted by old roper View Post
NRA match rules

.2 Sighting Shots—In RegisteredTournaments, in which courses offire are
used that are listed under Rule 17.5, the sighting shots specified must be allowed.
(a) Limited Sighting Shots—When limited sighting shots are allowed (see
Rules 10.1.8 14.10 (b) (3) and 17.5) coaching will not be allowed.
(b) Unlimited Sighting Shots—When unlimited sighting shots are allowed
the competitor may change rifles, and/or sights and receive coaching,
before, but not afterfiring the first shot for record. No additional time
will be allowed. In courses of fire described in Rule 17.5(y) and (z)
and the 800 yard stage of the Palma Course (Rule 17.5(ac)), unlimited
sighting shots are allowed. See Rule 8.2(a) for time limitations.
(c) In slow fire stages of matches, where sighters are allowed, the shooters
may or may not take their sighters, but must tell their scorer if they
are not going to take sighters.
(d) In rapid fire stages or matches, any sighting shots not fired during
the time allowed for sighters will be recorded as misses (in the space
reserved for sighting shots). See Section 8 for time allowance.

Bart you had sighter
I've no idea what you're referring to. Please explain. If you're referring to post 18, no sighter made before that shot. It probably wasn't in a match.

Last edited by Bart B.; January 24, 2022 at 09:54 PM.
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Old January 24, 2022, 04:56 AM   #28
Jim567
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What drove me bonkers -
With the shortage of ammo I didn’t shoot much this summer.
I used the time to really do a thorough barrel cleaning.
That’s when accuracy fell off .
I checked and re-checked action screws -
Checked and re- checked base mount and ring screw tensions. -
Cleaned well after each firing -
Bought wonder barrel cleaning chemicals -
Changed scopes -
Glass bedded -
Lapped the crowns-
Freaked out - lol!
Revisited my bench rest equipment and technique. -
After several trips I finally noticed - the one hole groups only came after a 9 shot or more fouled barrel.
Glass bedding and lapping the crowns did have some benefit.
It was a hell of a learning experience.
Before I did the thorough barrel cleaning I would just use Hoppes #9 no bore brushing.
The experience did make me a better shooter so there is that.
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Old January 24, 2022, 09:35 AM   #29
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My rifles, about which I am concerned about accuracy, are hunting rifles. Only seldom do I clean the barrels and usually when I do, it is slightly more than what Shadow9mm describes. I might get a lubed bore snake through the barrel two or three times and maybe a couple oiled patches. This just renders the barrel slightly less dirty and without changing the accuracy in any noticeable manner. I have done this enough times that I don't bother to recheck accuracy at the range before hunting.

The chamber and lugs get a thorough cleaning as does the BCG, but the barrel is left fouled, cleaner, but fouled.

Only rarely do I take the barrel down to bare bare metal with a thorough cleaning. Usually, it will happen when changing optics and I need to go through the zero process anew anyway and that will get the barrel fouled without wasting ammo solely to foul the barrel.
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Old January 24, 2022, 11:26 AM   #30
hounddawg
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Quote:
At a 22 rimfire rifle match some years ago, I was asked by some spectators why the competitors cleaned their barrels every few dozen shots.
and then there is my old factory stock CZ452 that scores in the 2000's at ARA matches in factory class that has not had a patch down it in 5K + rounds. Now some of the guys shooting unlimited with customs are obsessed with cleaning after every match but when I was breaking in my Kid (ruger 10/22 clone) I would run 2 dry patches down it and get little more than a bit of light dust on the first patch and the next would be clean so I just stopped cleaning my 22's barrels with the exception of the bolt and chamber
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Old January 24, 2022, 06:05 PM   #31
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
and then there is my old factory stock CZ452 that scores in the 2000's at ARA matches in factory class that has not had a patch down it in 5K + rounds. Now some of the guys shooting unlimited with customs are obsessed with cleaning after every match but when I was breaking in my Kid (ruger 10/22 clone) I would run 2 dry patches down it and get little more than a bit of light dust on the first patch and the next would be clean so I just stopped cleaning my 22's barrels with the exception of the bolt and chamber
Will it put 40 shots inside a half MOA center to center at 50 yards?

Last edited by Bart B.; January 24, 2022 at 10:01 PM.
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Old January 25, 2022, 02:00 PM   #32
hounddawg
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close Bart, the ARA factory (rifles cost below $1000) targets 100 point ring is about 3/4 inch. A perfect card would be 2500 with a possible extra 25 points for X's. Scoring is worst edge. My last match I scored a 2400, 2200, and 2075. Good enough considering it is a 12 year old rifle that I bought new for less than $400 with a has little 16X Leupold scope on it and shoot $9 a box ammo. Factory barrel, stock, and trigger. State and National level matches see some 2500 + scores

In the unlimited class the 100 point ring for the high end ($1000 plus)rifles is just at .5 inch. Those guys normally score in 1700 - low 2000's

Great wind calling and technique practice. We have everyone from 12 year olds to 80+ year olds shooting in the factory class

edit-

you know I bet what you are referring to is a carryover from th eold corrosive primer days. I was religious about cleaning my rifles and shotguns after every shooting session well into the 80's and 90's becasue that was what my Dad taught me. He grew up in th edays of corrosive primers when such cleaning was needed.
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Last edited by hounddawg; January 25, 2022 at 03:34 PM.
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Old January 25, 2022, 03:43 PM   #33
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When I get a new barrel, other than cleaning before the first use, I clean the barrel after I notice accuracy starting to drop off.
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Old January 25, 2022, 04:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed308 View Post
When I get a new barrel, other than cleaning before the first use, I clean the barrel after I notice accuracy starting to drop off.
You are a man with good common sense.
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Old January 25, 2022, 09:13 PM   #35
Bart B.
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When I was shooting 22 smallbore rifle matches winning some occasionally outscoring USA Olympic team members, cleaning the barrel after 50 to 60 shots was the norm for everyone.

Best accuracy was with Lapua, Eley or RWS made before 1980. That's when an explosion at the Lapua plant caused by bad primer mix. Eley was tasked to make a safer formula for all brands at the expence of less accurate ammo and shorter barrel life; 30,000 rounds versus 50,000. All USA prone records set before then still stand.

Last edited by Bart B.; January 25, 2022 at 09:19 PM.
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Old January 25, 2022, 09:22 PM   #36
hounddawg
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As you often point out , .22LR ammo has changed through the years.

When I bought my Kidd a couple of years back I cleaned it before shooting then after my first ammo test. Nine or ten flavors of ammo, Three five shot groups or 15 rounds of each type. Various flavors of SK, CCI, Lapua, Eley, Lapua, RWS. Ran a patch down it and it had what looked like a few flakes of powder on it, ran a second and it came out clean. No use cleaning if there is nothing to clean
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Old January 26, 2022, 01:04 PM   #37
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
close Bart, the ARA factory (rifles cost below $1000) targets 100 point ring is about 3/4 inch. A perfect card would be 2500 with a possible extra 25 points for X's. Scoring is worst edge. My last match I scored a 2400, 2200, and 2075. Good enough considering it is a 12 year old rifle that I bought new for less than $400 with a has little 16X Leupold scope on it and shoot $9 a box ammo. Factory barrel, stock, and trigger. State and National level matches see some 2500 + scores

In the unlimited class the 100 point ring for the high end ($1000 plus)rifles is just at .5 inch. Those guys normally score in 1700 - low 2000's

Great wind calling and technique practice. We have everyone from 12 year olds to 80+ year olds shooting in the factory class

edit-

you know I bet what you are referring to is a carryover from th eold corrosive primer days. I was religious about cleaning my rifles and shotguns after every shooting session well into the 80's and 90's becasue that was what my Dad taught me. He grew up in th edays of corrosive primers when such cleaning was needed.
Here's links to what I'm referring to:

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/14/a...ons-plant.html
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Old January 26, 2022, 01:12 PM   #38
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
you know I bet what you are referring to is a carryover from th eold corrosive primer days.
Here is my references, info in post 74 and 79 in:

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...4031871/page-4

Last edited by Bart B.; January 26, 2022 at 01:21 PM.
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Old January 26, 2022, 01:18 PM   #39
MarkCO
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For those who forget...the post is about this...

Quote:
I have two savage rifles both model 11’s with 20 inch barrels.
It seems to take about nine rounds through both rifles, the 223 and 308 for accuracy to return after cleaning.
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Old January 26, 2022, 03:08 PM   #40
Bart B.
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Various opinions on barrel cleaning......

https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...eaning-debate/
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Old January 26, 2022, 04:55 PM   #41
hounddawg
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Ok you got me curious Bart, I went down and gave the CZ it's once a decade cleaning. I cannot recall the last time I cleaned this rifle, at least ten years and 10,000 rounds ago. Maybe more

Pic 1 is of the 12 cleaning patches in left to right order - the top 4 were dry, I followed those with 4 wet with Hoppes 9, that is the middle row, then finished up with 4 dry on the bottom row. From the looks of the borescope pic looks like I need to put another wet patch down and let it soak a bit, some small carbon streaks were left

Pic 2 was taken with my little teslong borescope after cleaning. I did notice some light pitting at the 6 o'clock position of the barrel. That might be the glass dust from the primers that was mentioned in that thread you linked. Whatever it is accuracy does not seem to be a issue. The rifle still shoots lights out if I hold my tongue just right and use good ammo, as witnessed by Pic 3 which was shot back in July 2020. With premium ammo the little $300 rifle can still shoot a .473 average for 25 shots at 50 yards.

Now I just have to get the barrel dirty again before the next ARA match
Attached Images
File Type: jpg patches.jpg (63.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg borescope.jpg (40.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg fiocchi.jpg (83.7 KB, 16 views)
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Old January 26, 2022, 06:41 PM   #42
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Ok you got me curious Bart, I went down and gave the CZ it's once a decade cleaning. I cannot recall the last time I cleaned this rifle, at least ten years and 10,000 rounds ago. Maybe more

Pic 1 is of the 12 cleaning patches in left to right order - the top 4 were dry, I followed those with 4 wet with Hoppes 9, that is the middle row, then finished up with 4 dry on the bottom row. From the looks of the borescope pic looks like I need to put another wet patch down and let it soak a bit, some small carbon streaks were left

Pic 2 was taken with my little teslong borescope after cleaning. I did notice some light pitting at the 6 o'clock position of the barrel. That might be the glass dust from the primers that was mentioned in that thread you linked. Whatever it is accuracy does not seem to be a issue. The rifle still shoots lights out if I hold my tongue just right and use good ammo, as witnessed by Pic 3 which was shot back in July 2020. With premium ammo the little $300 rifle can still shoot a .473 average for 25 shots at 50 yards.

Now I just have to get the barrel dirty again before the next ARA match
What is the biggest group's size?
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Old January 26, 2022, 07:38 PM   #43
hounddawg
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group sizes are right there on the target Bart but I'll play - largest group .603 ", smallest .318", average .473".

Anyway the point is you do not need to clean a .22 LR every twenty five rounds and you don't need a $3K gun to shoot .3 inch groups at 50 yards
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Old January 26, 2022, 08:07 PM   #44
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OP's rifle returned to, not improved upon, precleaning accuracy after 9 fouling shots. That sounds right.

But it begs the question; why do I want to clean the rifle? 9 rounds costs $5 to $10 today. For winning match and breaking record, perhaps. I'd rather put the money somewhere else.

I have a Mossberg 151M that can put all 50 rounds into a hole about 1" big at 50yd. The rifle cost less than $100 and I have cleaned the bore only once in 7 years since I bought it used. I will get laughed at if I bring it to a proper match. But it works more than ok for me. Oh, it doesn't even have a scope, but wears the Mossberg target sight.

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Old January 26, 2022, 08:59 PM   #45
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
group sizes are right there on the target Bart but I'll play - largest group .603 ", smallest .318", average .473".

Anyway the point is you do not need to clean a .22 LR every twenty five rounds and you don't need a $3K gun to shoot .3 inch groups at 50 yards
Now I understand your reasoning.

You use the smallest test group to define accuracy.

I use the largest test because it encompasses all test shots.

Last edited by Bart B.; January 26, 2022 at 11:15 PM.
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Old January 26, 2022, 09:27 PM   #46
hounddawg
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actually you don't understand. If I used your standard I would judge your shooting career by that 1998 Palma match. I am sure that your average was better than that

I use the average of 25 to 100 rounds to define accuracy of any given rifle, ammo etc for that particular day. Accuracy has many factors, the rifle, the ammo, the shooter and environmentals. No one group of 5 rounds defines the accuracy. I will take three targets of twenty rounds each, overlay them using OnTarget software then use 95% CEP to evaluate an F class match

In any match I shoot take the average of all targets I shoot to evaluate my performance.

Back to the OP Tangolina makes a very valid point

Quote:
But it begs the question; why do I want to clean the rifle? 9 rounds costs $5 to $10 today.
Now that I have cleaned that CZ it will take me 10 - 15 rounds to get the barrel back into shape. Not that big of a deal with $10 a box .22 but with centerfire ammo costs these days it could get expensive
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Last edited by hounddawg; January 26, 2022 at 09:54 PM.
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Old January 26, 2022, 11:02 PM   #47
Bart B.
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It's a very stupid idea to use my 1988 team match score to define the rifle's accuracy because I didn't rest the aperture sighted rifle on bags but shot from prone and the coach gave me sight adjustments as it was a team match shot during 30 mph average cross wind changes across a 10 to 15 MOA spread centered on 30 MOA at the 800. 900 and 1000 yard lines. Issued ammo was arsenal 7.62 NATO M80 ball. First shot at 800 used 28 MOA right.

When properly tested with a scope sight and handloaded Sierra 155's at 800, 15 or more shots went inside 4 inches. That's done a half hour before sunrise when the air is very calm and stable. Started with a clean barrel, 1 and 2 were first two shots.


Last edited by Bart B.; January 30, 2022 at 11:09 AM.
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